# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Alan Goffinski (he/him), is an arts administrator, songwriter, and producer from Charlottesville VA. He is the former Executive Director of The Bridge Progressive Arts Initiative and the Charlottesville Mural Project—two city-wide organizations that utilize art and culture as a way for people to better understand themselves, each other, and the world around them. He is also a founding member of the Indianapolis-based whimsical performing arts collective Know No Stranger which has been described as “Sesame Street but for adults... but also for kids.” He produced the experimental music radio program Telemetry in partnership with the University of Virginia. Early in his career, Alan spent years making music in a nationally touring indie-punk band (signed to Victory Records) prior to becoming a social worker specializing in early childhood development. He began making kid’s music under the moniker Little Skunks as a fun way to be a part of the day-to-day lives of his nieces and nephew.

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Ana is an audio producer and host who came to WNYC in 2021 to work on Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials. Before that, she produced and hosted Mosaic, a show about immigration experiences from Rhode Island Public Radio. In a former life, she played jazz bass and thinks about everything in terms of rhythm, conversation, and harmony.

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Mira Burt-Wintonick (she/her) -- For the past 20 years, Mira’s been creating, story editing and sound designing various shows. Her work often explores grief and complex emotional landscapes (Love Me, Sorry About The Kid, Welcome to Paradise) but she’s also made some absurd comedy podcasts (WireTap, PenPals). She recently directed Wintopia, a feature documentary film about her late filmmaking father, Peter Wintonick, and his search for Utopia.

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Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.body
Artist Ashley Eliza Williams was so shy growing up that they found it hard to speak to people.  Instead, they withdrew from the world of humans and found comfort in the forest, where they spent hours exploring, scavenging and collecting, eventually discovering lichen. They began painting portraits of lichen’s wild, colorful, and fuzzy shapes.

In time, Ashley learned that lichen is actually a composite organism, a mixture of two species — algae and fungi — working together to live. This idea originally challenged evolutionary theory so much that scientists didn’t believe it. But lichen had so much more to teach us.

Chef Prashanta Khanal fills us in on the food science of lichen, and how its collaborative powers also extend to making certain foods healthier! Learning that lichen draws its strength from collaboration eventually encouraged Ashley to break out of their shell and reconnect to the world, where they would find not just friends and collaborators, but their true love.

Since the release of this podcast, artist Ash Eliza Williams goes by Ash and uses they/them pronouns.

Check out Ash Eliza Williams’s beautiful paintings.

Visit chef Prashanta's cooking blog, the Gundruk, for more on Nepali food history and recipes.

This episode features punk rock legend Laura Jane Grace, who makes a musical cameo on the song The Fuzzy Ruckus. Watch the music video and find the link to stream on our songs page.

Terrestrials was created by Lulu Miller with WNYC studios. This episode was produced by Brenna Farrel, Mira Burt-Wintonick, Alan Goffinski, Ana González, Tanya Chawla, Joe Plourde, Sarah Sandbach, Valentina Powers and Lulu Miller. Fact-checking by Diane Kelly. Transcription by Caleb Codding.

Special thanks to Siya Sharma-Gaines, Niran Bhatt Scharpf, Scott LaGreca, and Sarita Bhatt.

Our advisors are Ana Luz Porzecanski, Andy J. Pizza, Anil Lewis, Dominique Shabazz, Liza Demby, Princess Daazhraii Johnson and Tara Welty.

Learn more about storytellers, listen to music, and dig deeper into the stories you hear on Terrestrials with activities you can do at home or in the classroom on our website,

Terrestrialspodcast.org.

Badger us on social media: @radiolab  and #TerrestrialsPodcast or by emailing us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Sign up for our NEWSLETTER for trivia, resources, music, fun facts, worksheets, and much more at terrestrialspodcast.org.

Visit the Terrestrials website to learn more about the show, meet our team, listen to the songs and discover fun activities, drawing prompts, music how-tos and games that educators, parents and families might enjoy together.

If you’d like to “badger” a future expert, suggest story ideas or feedback, email us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Listen to just the songs from Terrestrials.

Sign up for Radiolab’s newsletter! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up here.

Radiolab for Kids and Terrestrials are supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, X and Facebook @radiolab.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation.

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Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Terrestrials is a show for people of all ages that explores the strangeness that exists right here on Earth. In each episode, host Lulu Miller (co-host of Radiolab) will introduce you to a creature or earthly phenomenon that will defy your expectations of how nature is supposed to work. Along the way, you'll encounter a chorus of experts, including scientists, surfers, hip hop artists and…a "Songbud" named Alan (indie punk musician Alan Goffinski) who creates original songs for key moments of confusion, discovery or awe. New episodes drop Thursdays. Listen in with your whole family. Or all alone.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundation.

LISTEN TO TERRESTRIALS  | SUPPORT TERRESTRIALS | TERRESTRIALS WANTS YOUR FEEDBACK! | PRESS INQUIRIES  | BECOME A SPONSOR | CONTACT US

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

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Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

# included[].attributes.tease
Artist Ashley Eliza Williams was so shy growing up that they found it hard to speak to people.  Instead, they withdrew from the world of humans and found comfort in the forest, where ...

# included[].attributes.transcript
Lulu Miller: Three, two, one! Imagine …

Ashley Eliza Williams: … You're slowing way, way down.

(As you slow down, you hear a sound almost like the tiniest animal snoring. Then, a jungle bed of sounds opens up around you. Strings pluck and helicopter seed-notes whirl around.)

Lulu: And your body is turning strange colors.

Ashley: Bright safety-cone orange.

(Beside you, another plant whirrs to life.)

Ashley: Or a toothpaste green.

(The clink of metal tapping a glass full of water.)

Lulu: (As Lulu talks, a slimy sound spreads between her words, too.) And as you slowly spread over a rock …

Ashley: You're eating the rock. [A moment.] And you might be being nibbled by a caribou.

(Ow! Nibble nibble–the caribou is getting you!)

Lulu: You have become–

Ashley: –A lichen!

(The sounds around you go quiet.)

Lulu: Alright, now is the part where I make you sing the theme song with me.

(Drums and a theremin trade a rhythm back and forth as the theme song starts.)

Songbud Alan Goffinski: (Joined by Lulu) Terrestrials, terrestrials, we are not the worst, we are the …

Ashley: (Unable to finish the song, embarrassed.) I don’t know! I–my brain is gone.

Lulu: (Trying to help Ashley guess.) We're not the worst. We’re the …

Ashley: (Excitedly.) The best!

Songbud Alan: (Finishing the song.) … Best-rials!

Ashley: Oh man!

Lulu: You got it! (Lulu claps for Ashley.)

Ashley: Okay.

(Like raindrops in a storm, the music steadily drips back.)

Lulu: Terrestrials is a show where we uncover the strangeness waiting right here on Earth. I am your host, Lulu Miller, joined as always by my song bud …

Songbud Alan: (Through autotune–it sounds like there are three Alans, maybe more!) Woah-ho-ho!

(With two deep drum beats, the music starts coming down heavier.)

Lulu: Alan.

Songbud Alan: Lichen, love it, want some more of it!

Lulu: And this season we are looking at creatures that are usually …

Songbud Alan: … Overlooked. (Songbud Alan shushes us. It’s a secret!)

(The theremin drones back, like a nice mosquito.)

Lulu: And today’s lichen lover is …

Ashley: Ashley Eliza Williams! And I am an artist …

Lulu: … Who paints …

Ashley: … Lichens! I'm obsessed with lichens! (Ashley laughs gently.)

(Our friend the theremin returns, this time driven on by a melody played by a calliope – an instrument you might hear at a circus!)

Lulu: Now, even if you don't think you've ever seen lichen, you probably have. It’s that often green or yellow fuzz that grows up trees or on top of rocks.

I honestly used to think it was a kind of mold.

(Uh-oh–the music winds down! Then it turns scary, like electronic nails on a chalkboard.)

Ashley: I mean, some people think they look like something has gone wrong, and [Lulu laughs.] they try to power wash them off things.

Lulu: I mean, I get that! It looks [Searching for a word.] kinda scuzzy!

Ashley: (Laughing as if to say, “Fair!”.) But, when you get up close, lichens are extremely beautiful.

(A bright twinkling sound enters into the music. It feels lighter now.)

Lulu: And Ashley knows this because when she walks through the forest, she wears a necklace with a special charm at the end called–

Ashley: –A loop. It's a little magnifying glass.

Lulu: Huh.

Ashley: And when I look at lichens really closely under this magnifying glass …

(The music deepens–not scary, but rich, mysterious, exciting!)

Lulu: She sees a different world.

Ashley: Some of them look like antlers.

Lulu: Fuzzy little reindeer antlers.

Ashley: Branching in all directions.

Lulu: Some of them …

Ashley: Kind of look like sea creatures.

Lulu: Or …

Ashley: Bubbles and cups.

(Bubbles flow up in between and around all the other sounds.)

Lulu: Some look like tiny heads of lettuce with tons of wrinkly leaves.

Ashley: And when you look inside the wrinkles, there are even more wrinkles! (Lulu laughs at the thought.)

Songbud Alan: Wrinkles on wrinkles on wrinkles on wrinkles!

Lulu: And the deeper she looked into lichen, she saw not only textures, but messages!

(The twinkling comes back, a little faster, a little more excitable than before.)

Lulu: Messages that could help humans trying to heal the earth–and one very special message that would help her overcome a fear she had been carrying since childhood.

Ashley: Yes!

(A beat.)

Lulu: All right. So our story starts millions of years ago–

(With one plunk, all the other sounds go away. In the empty space, you can hear wind rushing.)

Lulu: –When the Earth’s land was much more barren.

Mostly a lot of rocks. And, at some point, lichen shows up and begins spreading and chomping its way all over those rocks.

(Snack time for the lichen! It chomps away at the rocks just like you might eat broccoli. The bright sounds of the forest from before come back, too, now with birds chirping.)

Lulu: And as it chomped, it helped turn the rocks into soil, which made a nice cozy place for trees and other plants to take root and grow.

(Roots sink deep into the soil. Even more bugs and animals chime in.)

Lulu: And slowly the lichen spread farther and farther, all over the planet, to every corner, in almost every imaginable color. And one day, in 1985, a little baby girl is born in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia.

(The jungle full of animals goes quiet, leaving only music behind. Then, little by little, the sounds of an Appalachian forest creep in.)

Ashley: The thing is, there were lichens all around, but I didn't really notice them.

(Frogs croak in the forest.)

Lulu: Ashley was outside a ton as a kid.

Ashley: There was a creek behind my elementary school and I liked looking for all the little fishes and the bugs–the water bugs. I was fascinated by the water bugs.

(A bird twitters in the middle of the mountain forest.)

Lulu: And even though there were lichens right under her nose …

Ashley: They were invisible to me.

Lulu: Now, part of the reason Ashley spent so much time in nature was that being around humans–in big groups, at school or parties–was really hard.

(The forest sounds fade out. In their place, mysterious electronic sounds come in–maybe the sounds of a time machine?)

Ashley: I was an incredibly shy kid. Um, so I didn't really speak much … Or really at all. I didn't speak at all, um, for a couple of years in school.

Lulu: At–at all?

Ashley: Yeah. [A moment of quiet.] I so badly wanted to connect to other people. But for some reason I couldn't quite do it. It was too scary to kind of say a word. And I re-remember kids kind of asking me to speak or telling me to speak and I remember feeling kind of paralyzed, like I actually couldn't speak.

Lulu: She said she'd blush and the kids would sometimes start laughing.

Ashley: Oh, it was terrible. I hated it. I was so embarrassed.

Lulu: So Ashley started avoiding people as much as she could.

(We leave the time machine and move back to the forest, with all its sounds.)

Ashley: I spent a lot of time by myself reading and spending time in the woods. And because I wasn't talking very much, I became really curious about quiet beings.

Lulu: Like snails. Or ferns. Or those water bugs rippling the water.

(Plink-plink-plink go the water droplets, dripping and ringing in the woods.)

Ashley: Creatures that are quiet and maybe easily overlooked.

Lulu: She would stare at their movements and colors and try to understand them.

(Back out of the forest, an exciting melody begins to bounce up a keyboard.)

Ashley: That's probably why I became an artist. Because painting and making art is a kind of way to communicate without words.

Lulu: So Ashley painted and she drew creatures of the forest. And when she grew up, she landed a dream job, teaching art at Colorado State University. Only problem? Because teaching means talking in front of big groups of students …

Ashley: I was a wreck before every single class.

(The music softens, like a sunrise, delicately exploring the waking world.)

Lulu: So to calm her nerves, she'd go for runs through the mountains before class, just as the sun was coming up.

Ashley: The light would change, and the rocks would turn different colors.

Lulu: And she decided she wanted to paint a portrait of one of those rocks. But, as she started looking closely at it …

(Scritchy-scratchy lichens grow just as Ashley notices them.)

Ashley: I realized there were little creatures growing on the rock.

Lulu: Lichens! She was noticing lichens for the first time.

Ashley: They were all different colors: bright yellow and tangerine orange and–and strange blue-green.

Lulu: And she thought, “Forget the rocks–I want to paint these!”

(Ashley’s brush moves against the canvas, scritchy-scratchy just like the lichen.)

Lulu: And as she painted more and more of their wild shapes, she began to wonder ...

Ashley: … Who they were.

Lulu:  She couldn’t tell: Were they mushrooms? Were they plants?

(A glimmer.)

Lulu: And we’ll get back to that. But the thing that really amazed her as she started to research them was just how much they could do.

(Plucky strings begin to play.)

Lulu: ‘Cause it turned out lichen doesn’t just live on rocks and trees.

Ashley: They live on metal. They live on statues and gravestones, even on the backs of bugs.

Lulu: (Shocked.) What?

Ashley: Yes.

Lulu: Kind of bobbing along as it goes?

Ashley: Yes.

Lulu: Just catching a ride?

Ashley: Yes. Yes!

Lulu: They can also live in the freezing cold.

Ashley: In the far Arctic, under lots and lots of snow!

Lulu: Or the burning hot.

Ashley: In the desert.

Lulu: Or right after a volcano erupts!

(A volcanic eruption explodes onto the scene, and the plucky strings speed up as if running away while playing.)

Ashley: Huge explosion!

Lulu: After the lava rolls through …

Ashley: Some of the first creatures to arrive are lichens.

Lulu: They can even live–

Ashley: –Unmoored!

(After an exciting musical moment, the strings and volcanic winds give way to a soft breeze and the sound of wind chimes.)

Lulu: In the wind.

(A moment to enjoy the wind.)

Lulu: And because of all this, many species of lichens are what’s known as …

Songbud Alan and Lulu: Extremophiles! (A hard rock guitar riff plays.)

Lulu: Yeooooow! [Laughs. Then, with heavy emphasis on each ‘extreme,’ continuing.] Extremophiles: creatures going to the EXTREME, living in an EXTREME environment, and for an EXTREMELY long time.

Ashley: The oldest lichen, I believe, is 9,000 years old.

Lulu: (Gasping, then choking, then coughing.) Oh my god!

Ashley: And–

Lulu: I'm authentically choking on my water. Here, hold on.

(Ashley laughs.)

Lulu: Wow!

Ashley: I was shocked too. Yeah, 9,000 years old in Sweden.

(A low chord begins to play, taking us back in time.)

Ashley: Imagine being that old! [Lulu laughs.] And, like, those lichens have seen a lot of things.

Lulu: The building of the pyramids. The invention of the wheel. Wooly mammoths!

And because they've been around for so long, they contain messages. Messages they've recorded about the past.

So if you were to look out at a field of lichen with a trained eye, you could tell when there was a flood, or a fire, or someone trespassing.

Lulu: And so, lichens are used by historians and forest rangers and even [A beat.] detectives.

(A 1960-style detective theme song begins to take shape.)

Ashley: Lichens can help us solve crimes. (Lulu laughs.)

Lulu: She is not kidding! Lichens have been used in court cases! And they can also tell us about things we can’t see with our own eyes.

Ashley: Like, the color of the lichen will change in areas with worse air pollution.

(The theme song changes a little, becoming lower, growl-ier, with horns playing every few beats. In the background, someone coughs–oh no, air pollution!)

Lulu: Huh. So, like, you wouldn't even need some fancy device.

Ashley: Right!

Lulu: You could just go walk around in a forest.

Ashley: Yes!

Lulu: And see: It is healthy here.

Ashley: Yeah!

(We’re back in the 1960s musically. It’s Adam West’s Batman, but with lichen.)

Lulu: It is dangerous here.

Ashley: Yeah!

Lulu: Neat!. They are like these understated superheroes –

(Pfoo-pfoo-pfoo!)

Lulu: –That can do all kinds of things that almost no plant or animal on Earth can do.

(A grand superhero detective finale, and the music is gone!)

Lulu: Which got me wondering …

[To Ashley.] How are they able, like … What do you think the source of their superpower is? Like, just the fact that they [A breath.] can last so long? They can live on sand …

Ashley: Yeah.

Lulu: … They can live after lava, they can live in the air, they can live under snow …? Like, what is their power? Where does it come from?

Ashley: Um, well …

(New synthesizer music starts. It’s almost time for the break!)

Lulu: Ashley has the answer. And she’ll tell us! Right after a short break.

(The break. After commercials, the podcast returns with the crunching of feet in snow. A plucked cello melody accompanies the footfalls.)

Lulu: Terrestrials … is back.

Ashley: We are in Maine.

Lulu: And we …

Ashley: Of the Northwoods.

Lulu: Are on a hunt.

Ashley: And it's just basically snowy everywhere.

Lulu: A lichen hunt.

Ashley: Okay.

Lulu: With artist Ashley Eliza Williams.

Ashley: So I'm crouching down [Footsteps stop.] and I'm gonna dig into the snow [Digging starts.] and see if I can find some lichens.

Lulu: We’ve just come across some boulders covered in about six inches of snow.

Ashley: (While brushing away snow.) Alright, I'm dusting the snow off the surface.

Lulu: And, peeking out from under the white fluffy snow …

(Shiny new lichen music sparkles. It’s magic!)

Ashley: I see a lichen!

Extremely bright, kind of tangerine-colored lichens. And it's living under here–under the snow.

Lulu: So the question we left off with was: “How?” [Laughingly.] How is lichen so boss? How can it survive in such extreme places, like under this snow where very few other things can live?

(The sparkles drift away. A stringed instrument bounces a melody up and down over the sound of wind, or maybe cars, outside.)

Lulu: And get ready, because the answer might scramble your brain a bit–might shatter a hard line you thought existed in nature. Because remember how Ashley couldn’t tell at first if lichen were plants or mushrooms? Well, it turns out …

Ashley: They're not a plant. And they're not a mushroom.

Lulu: They're a plant [Mysterious UFO sound effects float up into the atmosphere.] AND a mushroom.

Ashley: It's a plant and a fungi together.

Distorted Voice: Together … !

Lulu: Lichen is what's called a composite organism. One organism, made up of two–or more!–species. So when Ashley looks close at one splotch of lichen growing off of a rock, the thing she is looking at? It's not one thing!

Ashley: It's actually not an organism, it's a relationship.

Lulu: Wait, the matter that we're seeing, these wild shapes and cups and antlers … Like, that is a relationship in physical form?

Alma: Yes!

(Drip-drip-drop goes the music as it comes to a halt.)

Lulu: It's a strange idea. But here's what she means. When you look at lichen under a microscope, it looks a little like a hug. The mushroom–or the fungi–is giving a big hug, totally surrounding the plant part called algae.

Ashley: They're kind of fitting into each other like puzzle pieces.

(As Lulu talks, a xylophone plays softly underneath.)

Lulu: What goes on in this hug allows lichen to do incredible things because the fungus gives the lichen fungi powers–it can sip water from the air, and minerals from the soil and provide shelter for that soft algae center.

Ashley: The fungus kinda protects the algae.

Lulu: And the algae … Well, that gives the lichen plant powers. That lets it do the incredible, magical-seeming trick of using sunlight to turn air …

Ashley: … Into sugar.

(Lulu says “Tada”! as a tiny xylophone does a quick run of notes.)

Lulu: And that hug is the secret to how lichen can handle so many extreme environments: Arctic tundra, deserts, lava fields, even air itself. Lichen can find a way to get the food and strength it needs because of the multiple species [Emphasizing each word.] that it is.

Ashley: They're a community!

Lulu: … Which was such a strange idea.

Ashley: To be a bunch of different beings all squished together …

Lulu: That when scientists first suggested that's what was going on inside lichen …

(The music fades out.)

Lulu: People just didn't believe it.

Ashley: It totally upended everything we know about what we think of as an organism.

Lulu: Huh.

(A moment of quiet.)

Lulu: This was back in 1869, about a decade after Charles Darwin published his big book, On the Origin of Species, which talked about how creatures compete with one another to survive. And many people took that to mean that to succeed at life you had to compete.

(Dramatic music plays, as if we are about to play the world’s biggest game of biology football.)

Songbud Alan as “Coach Darwin”: (Whistles.) It's a dog-eat-dog world out there! Do you want to win?

Songbud Alan as “Teammate”: (Unconvincingly.) Uh, yeah?

“Coach Darwin”: I said, do you want to win?

“Teammate”: Yeah!

(Others chime in.)

A Chorus of “Teammates”: Woo! Survival of the fittest! Survival of the fittest!

“Coach Darwin”: Now get out there and crush the competition!

(The “team” cheers, claps, and chants excitedly.)

“Teammate”: Yeah!

Lulu: And then along comes this scientist who said, “Wait! Look at what’s going on inside lichen! These two different species are …”

(The music slumps to a slow halt.)

Ashley: … Working together.

(Soft, thoughtful music lays down a bed of sound.)

Lulu: It seemed bonkers to a lot of scientists at first. But the more they looked under microscopes at lichen, the more they saw the truth inside: These two different species working together to become one organism.

They even had to invent a whole new word to describe it.

Ashley: The word symbiosis actually came from scientists studying lichens.

Lulu: “Sym,” meaning “together,” and “bio,” meaning “life”–working together to live!

Distorted Voice: Symbiosis.

Lulu: And what is wild is that that hug inside of lichen? Well, if you zoom out you can see how it extends to all kinds of creatures outside of it.

In the Arctic, for example, because lichen can stay alive in the freezing snow throughout the winter, then so can caribou and reindeer nibbling up lichen until spring.

(Crunchy snow and crunching animals make almost the same sound on top of each other.)

Lulu: Or in the deserts of Libya, lichen growing on hot rocks, helps sheep survive through dry spells.

(Sheep bleat, a “baa” here and a “baa” there – everywhere a “baa, baa”!)

Lulu: Or on the snowy foothills near Mount Everest, there is somebody else finding crucial nourishment from lichen.

Prashanta Kanal: (Searching.) I'm on page 40 … 42.

Lulu: This is Prashant Kanal flipping through a cookbook he wrote of recipes from Nepal, where he lives.

Prashanta:  … Garlic cloves, ginger ...

(Lulu hums, thinking about how it might taste and smell already.)

Prashanta: One onion. And a handful of lichen.

(A game show buzzer goes off – lichen food, for people! Then, soft, arpeggiated notes bounce up and down for a gentle background sound.)

Lulu: This is a recipe for a lichen curry called the yangben faksa.

Now, some lichen is poisonous, so don’t go around tasting it–but!–Prashanta explained that in the eastern region of Nepal there grows a lichen that is totally safe to eat. And in the generations that the Limbu people have been living on those often-snowy hillsides, lichen became an essential food.

Prashanta: Yeah. yeah.

Lulu: And a tasty one too.

Prashanta: I've never seen anyone who has tried lichen and they didn't like it.

Lulu: Everyone is likin’ lichen? (Already laughing at her joke – the two words sound the same out loud!)

Prashanta: (Laughing a little, but not as into it.) That's a good one.

Lulu: Sorry.

Prashanta: Yeah.

Lulu: (Still laughing gently.) Okay!

Lulu: When Prashanta learned that lichen helped his ancestors … Well, it changed how the lichen curry tasted to him.

Prashanta: Food tastes better if you know the–the history. It changes the experience and somehow the food becomes even tastier.

(The music slowly fades out as Lulu talks.)

Lulu: And back to our shy artist Ashley. When she learned that lichen was actually a community of species helping one another, it made her question something that she had believed for a long time.

Ashley: I, you know, for a long time thought I maybe didn't need people. (Laughs shyly.)

Lulu: She had the woods, the quiet. But looking closely at lichen started to change her.

(Emotional, low, slow music kicks up.)

Ashley: The fact that lichens are stronger because they're a community, um, is something that's really stayed with me. And as I've gotten older, I realize that I very much need people. I–I very much need a community.

Lulu: Scary as crowds can be, she started to believe that there could be people inside them who could support her, inspire her, make her laugh … or, you know, help her survive.

Ashley: Lichens show us that we need–that we need each other.

Lulu: So she started pushing through her fears and attending concerts, lectures by scientists, art openings, and even [Pausing briefly for suspense.] going to the grocery store when it was busy, instead of 6 AM when no one would be there.

Ashley: (Laughing and reflecting.) Yeah!

Lulu: And even though it often terrified her to do these things …

Ashley: I have met some of the most fascinating people [Laughs.] on the planet.

Lulu: Including a certain someone named …

Ashley: Uh, Jason!

Lulu: A scientist with spiky black hair and kind brown eyes. And one spring day, he asked Ashley if she wanted to go on a date.

Lulu: Were you n-nervous?

Ashley: Oh my goodness. I was incredibly shy with him.

Lulu: But Jason didn't seem to mind that Ashley was quiet.

They went to an art museum and stood shoulder to shoulder.

Ashley: Looking quietly …

Lulu: … And carefully at all kinds of art.

Ashley: And he was able to do that. And I was really impressed by that.

(The music fades down.)

Lulu: She was also impressed by what kind of science he did.

Ashley: One of the things that drew me to him is that he studies shy galaxies.

Lulu: Shy galaxies? Like sp–like in outer space? There are … ?

(Twinkling stars intertwine with a repeated drumbeat.)

Ashley: Yes.

Lulu: What does that mean?

Ashley: So when you think of a galaxy, you might think of these, you know, galaxies with bright spiral arms.

Lulu: (The two talk over each other.) Flashing, a lot's going on, they're showy? Okay! They're flashy.

Ashley: (Enthusiastically.) Yeah!

Lulu: Yeah, yeah. Literally flashy. Okay.

Ashley: Yes! [Chuckles lightly.] But he is interested in the galaxies that not many people care about. The little, quiet galaxies that don't make very much light.

(A keyboard melody draws us out into space.)

Lulu: In other words …

Ashley: They're kind of like the lichen of space.

Lulu: The lichen of space!

Ashley: Yeah, he's looking at these little smudges in the sky that are really easy to overlook …

(ZAP! goes a sound almost like teleportation across the vast darkness of space.)

Ashley: … While I'm kind of crouched down on the ground looking at these tiny little lichens that are also overlooked. And I think that's really romantic.

(The music wraps up as one more teleportation ZAP! rings out.)

Lulu: (Ashley laughs softly and sweetly.) Aww. I do too. Well here’s to lichens–of all kinds.

(Drums! Guitar feedback! Could it be time for another Songbud moment?)

Lulu: Oh no!! Songbud’s got a famous punk star with him: Laura Jane Grace!

Laura Jane Grace: Woo!

Lulu: … And they’ve both got electric guitars.

Songbud Alan as “Fungus”: Whether you're Algae,

Laura Jane Grace as “Algae”: Or you're Fungus,

Both: We're gonna make a fuzzy ruckus!

Fungus: I'm not likin’ what you're likin’.

Algae: And you're likin’ what I don't. ‘Cause if I'm Algae,

Fungus: And I'm Fungus,

Both: We're gonna make a fuzzy ruckus!

Fungus: I eat rocks!

Algae: I photosynthesize!

Fungus: It’s hard to believe,

Algae: But you’re growing on me.

(Fungus says “Oh!” and laughs.)

Both: The coldest cold, the hottest sun, whatever anybody throws at us,

[A spoken chorus.] Oh, oh, we grow together better than alone.

Oh, oh, we grow together better than alone.

[Singing.] We thrive united, not apart.

We face the day together, all as one.

[The spoken chorus again.] Oh, oh, we grow together better than alone.

Oh, oh, we grow together better than alone.

[Singing.] We found our own way to play the game, to change the rules, and stay alive!

We don't survive without each one.

Algae: I’ll drink the wind, you eat the sun.

Both: A culture all our own.

We're likin’ this alliance that we've grown!

Algae: Whether you're Algae,

Fungus: Or you're Fungus,

Algae: We're gonna make a fuzzy ruckus.

Both: Together we are stronger than alone.

Lulu: Alan Goffinski and Laura Jane Grace, everybody.

Laura Jane: Woo, yeah!

(A tambourine jingles.)

Lulu: And that is it. That is the end of Terrestrials. There's nothing else cool about to happen.

(Suddenly, out of nowhere, trumpets … well, uh, trumpet! It’s The Badgers!)

Lulu: (Whispered.) What's that?

Badger #1: Excuse me, I have a question.

Badger #2: Me too.

Badger #3: Me three.

Badger #4: Me four.

Lulu: (Whispered, but somehow loudly.) The Badgers.

(The Badgers theme song plays underneath the questions.)

Lulu: Listeners with badgering questions for the expert. Are you ready?

Ashley: Yes!

Alma: I'm Alma, and I'm six and I’m almost turning seven.

Are all lichens okay to eat, or–or are some dangerous?

Ashley: Okay, so, they're eaten in all kinds of different cultures, including–

Lulu: –Nepal, as we already learned, and also–

Ashley: –In India, where they're in a popular spice called garam masala.

Lulu: (Gasps.) Garam masala! I have that in my spice rack right now! So there’s–there’s lichen in my kitchen right now.

Ashley: Yeah!

Lulu: But reminder: Many in the wild are poisonous! So don’t go lickin’ lichen!

Rosalind Chao: Hi, my name is Rosalind Chao. I'm an actor from Star Trek. Could lichens survive on the moon?

Ashley: They’ve actually put lichens into space.

Lulu: Wait, like, shot ‘em up in a rocket ship?

Ashley: Yes! Yes! They–they did! They  …

Lulu: And then, like, let ‘em out the door?

(Whoosh! The lichens get sucked out of the spaceship!)

Ashley: Yes! And they go dormant, out in outer space. But, when they bring them back to Earth, they can revive them and they're still alive.

Lulu: We could not do that.

Ashley: No, we could not do that. And very few other beings on Earth could do that.

But lichens can do that.

Niran: Hi my name is Niran. I’m 7 years old. My question is: Are lichen half-dead creatures?

Ashley: Nope. So they're actually double-alive [Lulu laughs.] because they are, um, uh, a fungus and an algae. And actually maybe triple-alive because they're also bacteria.

(The Badgers theme song gets quiet, then fades out. In its place: Bubbles in space! Slow, gentle, mysterious, they float around a piano melody.)

Lulu: Wow. So wait, the community just went from two to maybe three, maybe four, maybe five, and beyond?

Ashley: Every time a new paper comes out–or more information comes out–about lichens, we're learning that they're made of more beings.

Lulu: Huh.

Ashley: (Laughingly.) So, the community just keeps getting bigger and more complex.

Lulu: All right. Gonna leave it there. But one last question! A question for you, listener. If you had to team up with another species, which one would it be? Let us know your answer. Shoot us an email or a drawing at …

Songbud Alan and Lulu: (Singing over barking dogs, xylophones, bubbles, and autotune.) terrestrials@wnyc.org

Lulu: (Giggles lovingly.) Terrestrials was created by me, Lulu Miller, with WNYC Studios.

This episode was produced by Brenna Farrel, Mira Burt-Wintonick, Alan Goffinski, Tanya Chawla, Ana González, Sarah Sandbach, Joe Plourde, Valentina Powers and me.

Fact-checking by Diane Kelly.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation, and the John Templeton Foundation.

[Goofily.] Thank youuu!

Also, huge shout out to our advisors for this season of Terrestrials: Ana Luz Porzecanski, Princess Johnson, Anil Lewis, Tara Welty, Liza Steinberg-Demby, Andy J. Pizza, Sophie MIller, and Dominique Shabazz. [Emphatically.] We could not have made this without you!

Special thanks to Siya Sharma-Gaines, Niran Bhatt Scharpf, Scott LaGreca, Sarita Bhatt – and you, for listening!

If you like our strange little show about the Earth and the creatures on it with the occasional singing, uhh, please rate and review us and share with your friends! It–it really does make a huge difference.

See you in a couple spins of this dirty, old planet of ours.

(The bubbles in space are back in full force, and as the episode drifts into the stars, so do we. That’s all for this episode!)

Since the release of this podcast, artist Ash Eliza Williams goes by Ash and uses they/them pronouns.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Alan Goffinski (he/him), is an arts administrator, songwriter, and producer from Charlottesville VA. He is the former Executive Director of The Bridge Progressive Arts Initiative and the Charlottesville Mural Project—two city-wide organizations that utilize art and culture as a way for people to better understand themselves, each other, and the world around them. He is also a founding member of the Indianapolis-based whimsical performing arts collective Know No Stranger which has been described as “Sesame Street but for adults... but also for kids.” He produced the experimental music radio program Telemetry in partnership with the University of Virginia. Early in his career, Alan spent years making music in a nationally touring indie-punk band (signed to Victory Records) prior to becoming a social worker specializing in early childhood development. He began making kid’s music under the moniker Little Skunks as a fun way to be a part of the day-to-day lives of his nieces and nephew.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Ana is an audio producer and host who came to WNYC in 2021 to work on Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials. Before that, she produced and hosted Mosaic, a show about immigration experiences from Rhode Island Public Radio. In a former life, she played jazz bass and thinks about everything in terms of rhythm, conversation, and harmony.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Mira Burt-Wintonick (she/her) -- For the past 20 years, Mira’s been creating, story editing and sound designing various shows. Her work often explores grief and complex emotional landscapes (Love Me, Sorry About The Kid, Welcome to Paradise) but she’s also made some absurd comedy podcasts (WireTap, PenPals). She recently directed Wintopia, a feature documentary film about her late filmmaking father, Peter Wintonick, and his search for Utopia.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.body
Have you ever seen an island on a lake? On an island? On a lake? On another island? Josh Calder has. Working in a dusty room of a library, he first saw one on a map, and has been fascinated with these “recursive islands” ever since. Songbud Alan Goffinski takes us on a wild journey into these secret bullseyes hiding all over planet Earth. We learn from ecologist Elba Montes why recursive islands breed species found nowhere else on Earth, and thus are hotbeds of evolution.

Check out Josh Calder’s website for more island information and trivia.

Check out Timbre, the wonderful musician featured in this episode.

Terrestrials was created by Lulu Miller with WNYC studios. This episode was reported, produced, and features original music composed by Alan Goffinski. Our team includes Alan, Mira Burt-Wintonick, Ana González, Tanya Chawla, Sarah Sandbach, Valentina Powers and Joe Plourde. Fact checking by Natalie Middleton.

Special thanks this episode to kid advisors Lola and Evie Young, and to Julie Abodeely, Sarita Bhatt, Shannon Webb-Campbell, Jae Johnson, Jeremy Stern. And thanks to the musician Timbre for plucking her harp and singing along to this episode.

Our advisors are Ana Luz Porzecanski, Andy J. Pizza, Anil Lewis, Dominique Shabazz, Liza Demby, Princess Daazhraii Johnson and Tara Welty.

Learn more about storytellers, listen to music, and dig deeper into the stories you hear on Terrestrials with activities you can do at home or in the classroom on our website,

Terrestrialspodcast.org

Badger us on social media: @radiolab  and #TerrestrialsPodcast or by emailing us at terrestrials@wnyc.org

Sign up for our NEWSLETTER for trivia, resources, music, fun facts, worksheets, and much more at terrestrialspodcast.org.

Visit the Terrestrials website to learn more about the show, meet our team, listen to the songs and discover fun activities, drawing prompts, music how-tos and games that educators, parents and families might enjoy together.

If you’d like to “badger” a future expert, suggest story ideas or feedback, email us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Listen to just the songs from Terrestrials.

Sign up for Radiolab’s newsletter! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up here.

Radiolab for Kids and Terrestrials are supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, X and Facebook @radiolab.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation.

# included[].attributes.headers.brand.logo-image.alt-text
Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

# included[].attributes.headers.links[].title
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.show-title
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

# included[].attributes.series[].about.body
Terrestrials is a show for people of all ages that explores the strangeness that exists right here on Earth. In each episode, host Lulu Miller (co-host of Radiolab) will introduce you to a creature or earthly phenomenon that will defy your expectations of how nature is supposed to work. Along the way, you'll encounter a chorus of experts, including scientists, surfers, hip hop artists and…a "Songbud" named Alan (indie punk musician Alan Goffinski) who creates original songs for key moments of confusion, discovery or awe. New episodes drop Thursdays. Listen in with your whole family. Or all alone.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundation.

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

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Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

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Have you ever seen an island on a lake? On an island? On a lake? On another island? Josh Calder has. Working in a dusty room of a library, he first saw one on a map, and has been fasc...

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The Bullseye: Treasure Hunt to Recursive Islands

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Lulu Miller: Three, two, one.

Songbud Alan Goffinski: Imagine you are surrounded by water …

(The podcast dives deep down underwater all around you.)

Lulu: Which is surrounded by land …

Songbud Alan: Which is surrounded by water …

Lulu: Which is surrounded by land …

Songbud Alan: Which is surrounded by, you guessed it, water …

Lulu: Which is surrounded by land …

(Songbud Alan and Lulu keep repeating back and forth, sounding more and more like chipmunks until it is impossible to tell what they are saying! A drop of water falls right in the middle of all the land, interrupting them.)

Lulu: You have become …

Songbud Alan: … A recursive island.

(Bubbles of sound float up around you, electric and shimmering.)

Lulu: Alright, now this is where I make you guess the theme song. I have a hunch you're gonna get it.

Songbud Alan: (Singing the theme song.) Terrestrials, Terrestrials! We are not the worst, we are the …

Songbud Alan: (Finishing his own song.) Uhh, Bestrials … ?

Songbud Alan: (Singing.) Bestrials!

Lulu: Terrestrials is a show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth and sometimes break out into song. I am your host, Lulu Miller, joined as always by my song bud–

Songbud Alan: (Jumping in, with autotune.) Ahoy there!

Lulu: Alan.

Songbud Alan: (Still with autotune.) Psyched for recursive islands!

Lulu: This season we are looking at creatures that are usually …

Songbud Alan and Lulu: (Together.) Overlooked! [A beat.] Shh!

Lulu: Okay! So, Alan, first things first: What the rock is a recursive island? (Alan laughs.)

Songbud Alan: Okay, so “recursive” just means repeating over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Lulu: Okay.

Songbud Alan: Island means … Well, island.

Lulu: Okay, got that. Okay, okay. So a repeating island.

Songbud Alan: Exactly. Meaning it's:

Songbud Alan: (Singing the unofficial theme song of this episode with autotune that gets more and more intense with each phrase.) An island! On an island! On an island! In the ocean!

Lulu: (Laughing.) Okay!

Songbud Alan: And not only do these things look cool–I mean, from outer space, one would look like a bullseye–

(Bullseye! An arrow thunks right into an island target)

Lulu: Woah, right!

Songbud Alan: –They are ecologically almost magical, because they can grow strange plants and animals found nowhere else on earth.

Lulu: Ooh! Alright, well, we’re doing things a little differently today because you fell in love so much with these strange powerful little bullseyes [Chuckle.] called recursive islands–

Songbud Alan: Mhm.

Lulu: –That I’m backin’ away from the mic, and you’re gonna take us on a journey to visit some of them!

Songbud Alan: Right! And we’re gonna kick things off with the guy who made me fall in love with recursive islands: Josh Calder.

(Upbeat music moves slowly but methodically, a funky drum beat underneath ringing, echoing synthesizers.)

Josh Calder: This is Josh.

Songbud Alan: As a kid, he was super into collecting toy cars and action figures, but in college he developed … a new hobby.

Josh: The polite term is “hobby.” The less polite term is “obsession.” (Laughs.)

Songbud Alan: Back then, he had a job working in a special dark and dusty part of the library known as the map room.

Josh: I think some librarian sent me down there. So I was looking at thousands of maps.

Songbud Alan: And his job was to organize all these maps.

(A map opens under the watchful eye of a librarian. As Songbud Alan narrates, each phrase comes to life with sound.)

Songbud Alan: So as he'd smooth them out on these huge tables, he would let his finger run across the green mountains, [Wind rustles through the mountains and over the map.] the blue lakes … [The whooshing of a wave rolling onto the shore.] And one day, he did a double take–emphasis on “double.”

Josh: I just noticed on some map, “Oh, look, there's an island nicely contained within another island!”

Songbud Alan: (Once again singing the episode’s theme.) An island! In a lake, on an island, in the ocean!

Songbud Alan: His recursive island obsession was born.

(Persistent, anxious music follows Josh’s fascination.)

Josh: I began to think, “Well, where else are there?” (Josh fades under.)

Songbud Alan: He begins scanning maps of the ocean, looking for little bullseyes.

Songbud Alan: Goat Island in Lake Erie, Wāwāhi Waka island in Aoteroa New Zealand …

Songbud Alan: Islands nestled in lakes on islands.

Songbud Alan: (Overlapping.) Isla Cabritos … Okishima Island, Japan …

Songbud Alan: And one day, he notices something on the island of Luzon in the Philippines.

(The music fades out to make way for the episode’s unofficial theme!)

Songbud Alan: (Singing, getting more layered with each level.) An island! In a volcano crater lake! On an island! In a lake! On an island! In the ocean!

(Hip-hop music picks up.)

Songbud Alan: It was a triple bullseye! The lake inside the volcano crater had an island inside of it named Vulcan Point. Our buddy Josh was enchanted.

(The music returns to the light, airy music from before.

Josh: Take a look at that. That is a lovely one.

Songbud Alan: And he just kept searching for more triple island bullseyes, spending hours and hours combing through hundreds of pages of maps.

(Another map crinkles as Josh turns to a new page. The music becomes slow and heavy, like molasses.)

Songbud Alan: Eventually, Josh's eyes ventured to the easternmost point of Canada.

Josh: I noticed there was quite a large island on an island in Newfoundland.

Songbud Alan: Newfoundland is an island itself. A big one. And it’s dotted with lakes like Swiss cheese. And right there, in one of those lakes, there was a triple bullseye island that–on Josh’s map, anyway–had no label.

Songbud Alan: (Singing the unofficial episode theme song.) An unlabeled island in a lake on an island in a lake on an island in the ocean.

Josh: (Laughs.) Yeah.

(The music picks the pace back up, excited, moving quickly now–it has somewhere to be!)

Songbud Alan: And to Josh’s eye, it looked even bigger than the more famous triple island in the volcano. But he wasn’t sure, so …

Josh: I was just like, “I think I'll just go there.”

Songbud Alan: Determined to lay eyes on the island, young Josh made his plans for a journey to the Great North.

Josh: I got on a bus and a train and a ferry and took a small inflatable boat in a backpack to Grand Lake in Newfoundland and inflated it and–

(A paddle hits the water.)

Songbud Alan: –Paddled out toward that next ring in the bullseye–

Josh: –Then hiked for a couple of days.

(Josh’s shoes crunch through his imagination, remembering his adventure.)

Songbud Alan: … Scanning for wildlife …

Josh: Are there polar bears that far inland that will eat me?

Songbud Alan: As he hiked through deep wilderness …

(More sounds of Josh hiking.)

Josh: I was going up a creek, and I slipped and fell with my 60-pound pack and my camera filled up with water.

(Luminous music, like light filtering through deep blue water, begins to play.)

Songbud Alan: And eventually he came to the next ring of water, and saw beyond it a tiny island.

(A beat.)

Songbud Alan: He blew up his little inflatable boat and he began to paddle.

Josh: (Sounding distant, echo-y.) I rode out there and set up my tent.

Songbud Alan: And as his hands touched the dirt, of what he was now sure was the center of a triple bullseye, he realized that on that night …

Josh: (Still far away.) I was the only person on the triple island.

Songbud Alan: In his tent, completely alone, Josh was surrounded by the wonder of a place like this. [Wind meanders around as Alan continues to narrate.] The wind seemed to carry whispers of all the people who had been drawn to these special islands long before Josh. [A bird chirps.]

Of the Beothuk, and the Mi’kMaq, who have fished, hunted, and cherished this very land for centuries, calling Newfoundland “Ktaqmkuk,” meaning “across the waters”.

Or beyond them, in Japan, where a bullseye island called Chikubu is said to be home to gods who grant wishes.

Or in Aoteroa/New Zealand–where a bullseye called Mokoia Island is believed to have enchanted soil.

(Music and wind and more birds chirping.)

Songbud Alan: As Josh trundled off to dream that night, alone beneath the bright stars of the subarctic sky, he was now sure that the largest triple island was not inside that far-off volcano, but likely right there.

(The wind suddenly vanishes, as if sucked up in a vacuum. The music changes tone again, becoming lower, slower, reflective.)

Lulu: When we return, we are gonna hear from someone who knows how sacred these islands are–not just to people–but to plants and animals all over the planet.

Songbud Alan: Like snakes!

Lulu: What?

Songbud Alan: (Imitating a hissing snake, with a rattle, too.) Ssssssssstick with us!

Lulu: (sounding scared, but trying to play along.) Okay.

(A rattlesnake break!)

Lulu: (Talking over a tone that indicates we are back from break.) Terrestrials is back! I’m Lulu, here with Alan, and I thought we were doing an episode about recursive islands, but before the break you just told me we’ve gotta hear something about snakes?

Songbud Alan: Yep!

(Snakes!)

Songbud Alan: So, picture, if you will, a scientist named Elba Montes.

Elba Montes: Hi!

Lulu: Okay.

Songbud Alan: She’s crouching down in some grasses.

Elba: From the island of Ibiza.

Songbud Alan: Near Spain. [A beat. A box clacks as Elba touches it.] She’s reaching her hand into a small wooden box–a trap–and pulling out two brown and black spotted snakes.

(Another click as the wooden box opens.)

Songbud Alan: Oh my goodness! These snakes do not look happy. (Elba laughs.)

Songbud Alan: Elba studies animals that live on islands, like these rather lively horseshoe whip snakes.

Songbud Alan: One of them is just swinging its head around back and forth, is it–is it trying to bite you?

Elba: (Laughs.) Yeah.

Songbud Alan: Did it get you?

Elba: Yeah, it bit me several times.

Songbud Alan: And you’re just, like, not even flinching! (Elba laughs in response.)

(High-pitched drones play softly in the background, like UFOs hovering just outside of Earth’s orbit, as fascinated by islands as we are.)

Songbud Alan: Because she knows this one’s not venomous, and cool creatures like these are why she is here! It turns out islands are really good at making strange lifeforms–brightly colored snakes.

Elba: Really beautiful!

Songbud Alan: And long-beaked birds that exist nowhere else on earth.

Elba: Islands are less than 7% of land on the planet. However, 20% of the species of the world are on islands.

Songbud Alan: Oh, wow.

Elba: And also, 50% of all endangered species are on islands.

Songbud Alan: Elba explained that because islands are cut off from the mainland, that makes them hotspots for evolution to make weird things happen: plants and animals growing and shrinking and sprouting new colors or textures, in ways that are perfectly suited to their little island habitats.

Elba: That’s right.

Songbud Alan: And because recursive islands are even more cut off …

Elba: They are like biodiversity treasures.

Recursive islands are even more unique, yeah, and special. You can find amazing features in animals and plants that have evolved on islands. Um, for example …

Songbud Alan: She told me about some fascinating species that could only be found on islands.

(The music changes tone to a jazzy beat, drums and a shaker moving back and forth, back and forth, lending a comic undertone to their conversation.)

Elba: Okay, so, a giant bird on New Zealand that was 12 feet tall.

Songbud Alan: Wow. That's bigger than Big Bird himself!

Elba: Also, a giant rabbit on the Balearic Islands that weighed 26 pounds.

Songbud Alan: 26 pounds! That's the Easter Bunny! (Elba laughs at the thought.)

Songbud Alan: And Elba says, our volcano island with the lake around it?

Elba: We can find the world’s only sardine that can live in–in freshwater.

Songbud Alan: Ooh, tasty! I wonder if those canned fish would be less salty.

Elba: Right. [She laughs, and so does he.] In some islands of Italy there was a dwarf elephant.

Songbud Alan: An elephant shorter than me?!

Elba: On Mediterranean islands, a dwarf hippopotamus!

Songbud Alan: This hippo’s barely up to my waist!

Elba: Yeah. Right.

Songbud Alan: Wow. I had no idea. How have I never heard of a dwarf hippopotamus? It is the cutest thing to me.

Elba: Because–no, because they are extinct.

Songbud Alan: Oh my gosh.

(No more shakers–the music spreads out, slows down, takes in the gravity of these incredible animals, now extinct.)

Elba: Yeah. When the humans arrived to those islands, they, um, ate them, or killed them, and they died.

Songbud Alan: That's tragic.

Elba: Yeah, it's really tragic.

Songbud Alan: Of course not all humans hunt animals to extinction. Elba explained that there have been many communities–many of them indigenous to islands–who have figured out how to co-exist with the rare creatures that surround them. And their techniques–and their voices–need more attention.

Elba: Yeah, for sure. That's the goal of studying islands, to have more knowledge about them so we can protect them better.

Songbud Alan: I mean, it sounds like you're saying we need to protect these places because the land on islands–and especially recursive islands–really is, like, sacred, almost, for plants or animals. Like, it makes special things.

Elba: Yeah. They are really a–a treasure.

Songbud Alan: (Singing slowly.) Evolutionary science. It’s the magic of the islands. (Songbud Alan’s voice echoes, pitching down each time.as he and Elba laugh.)

Songbud Alan: So back to young Josh. He returned home from his big trek to Canada where he’d set foot on what he thought could be the world’s biggest triple recursive island! But he had a hard time finding anyone who cared. Because, remember, this story took place long ago, before the internet.

(The sounds of dial-up internet play: A gritty back-and-forth of discordant electricity. After a moment, new music enters, the gentle muzak of a community forum.)

Songbud Alan: So Josh didn’t know about people like Elba who loved islands as much as he did! In fact, back then, there weren’t any websites about islands … until, well, Josh made one.

Josh: My website was the very first for, like, island trivia.

Songbud Alan: Suddenly Josh has a digital bridge from his own little metaphorical island to island lovers all over the world. He could share his discoveries with people who shared his interest, and, even better, he could learn from them–about the science of recursive islands, and about all the people who were psyched about recursive islands long before Josh.

He learned from them about secluded bullseye islands with temples, unique geography, cool creatures–islands he could go to, set foot on!

Josh: I think I’m officially around 608.

Songbud Alan: (Laughing, impressed and a little surprised.) Woah.

(The song goes quiet, then turns to a

Songbud Alan: And even though his wife, and kids, and friends, and coworkers, and neighbors don’t completely get his island obsession, Josh never turned away from the thrill of searching for little bullseyes–little doorways to worlds full of biological treasures. And one day, after, who knows, maybe thousands of hours of squinting at maps …

Josh: Huh.

Songbud Alan: He noticed, even farther north in Canada …

Josh: Huh!

Songbud Alan: (Picking back up the episode’s unofficial theme song.) In the frigid waters of the Arctic Ocean, on Kitlineq Island, in a lake, on a smaller island, in an even smaller lake, there's another unlabelled island!

Songbud Alan: (Chuckles.) It's still fun.

And at four acres–just bigger than two soccer fields–this island would take the crown as the biggest known triple island. Among the island enthusiasts, Josh, with his eagle eyes and eagerness to share the location and layered stories of these islands … He was a LEGEND! Until …

Jeopardy! Announcer: This is Jeopardy!

Songbud Alan: Here comes drama!

Jeopardy! Announcer: Here are today's contestants. A software engineer from Salt Lake City, Utah: Ken Jennings. (Ken’s name echoes over and over, the start of a nightmare.)

Songbud Alan: A clean-cut trivia icon with a winning smile, Ken Jennings was unstoppable with the buzzer on the quiz game show, Jeopardy!

He raked in millions in prize money and eventually became the show’s new host.

Jeopardy! Announcer: Here is the host of Jeopardy!, Ken Jennings!

(A light-hearted spin on the Jeopardy! theme music plays as Songbud Alan continues.)

Songbud Alan: What does this have to do with recursive islands? Well …
One area of trivia that Ken was particularly good at was geography trivia. And back in 2012, five years after Josh shared his post about the world’s largest triple island (hiding in Canada), Ken published an article about the location of the same island. An article titled, “Ken Jennings Finds One More Thing Canada Has That No One Else Does.”

Josh: But, uh, he didn't find it.

(Dun dun dun!!)

Songbud Alan: (Feigning outrage.) Ken, you scoundrel! And while Ken told us he never meant to suggest he, like, “found it”-found it …

Josh: Because it's more fun to say Ken Jennings discovered it, it became attributed widely to him.

Songbud Alan: Josh doesn't seem to hold much of a grudge against Ken. After all, he knows this island isn't his island. This corner of the world has long been appreciated and honored by the people who call it home–who’ve lived there for generations.

But after all this time watching Ken bask in the spotlight for getting people excited about what possibly is the biggest triple bullseye on the planet …

Josh: I was like, “This is a stupid, tiny thing, but it's my stupid, tiny thing!” (He chuckles.)

Songbud Alan: Josh got to work, doing what Josh does so well.

Josh: I was like, “Eh, I'll just find a bigger one.”

Songbud Alan: So off he went! Scouring maps, all alone, hour after hour, year after year, for seven years, until–huh!–he saw it.

Songbud Alan: (Singing the unofficial theme song anew.) In the North Atlantic Ocean. On Baffin Island. In Nettling Lake. On an unlabelled island. He noticed an unlabelled lake.

(A dramatic pause.)

Songbud Alan: (Singing.) With yet another even bigger unlabelled island!

Songbud Alan: Ayooo! And this island was bigger than five soccer fields–more than doubling the size of the previous largest-known triple island!

Songbud Alan: Oh yeah, Josh! Sit back down, Ken Jennings.

(Plucky, upbeat music enters in.)

Songbud Alan: You know, it's hard to not root for the guy who, without expecting much, went all in on his quirky little obsession and started sharing the beauty of these sacred spots with the rest of us. And some might say, “Big whoop, they're just dots on a map.” But, thanks to scientists like Elba, and thanks to people all over the world, from the Miqmak and Inuit to the North, to the people of the Philippines, Japan, New Zealand, and beyond who have revered and co-existed with the life on these recursive islands for centuries, we all still have treasures to search for–and protect!

Songbud Alan: (Singing over a lightly plucked harp, sunshine in strings.)

Keep searching, you keep–keep searching.

Keep searching, you keep–keep searching.

Keep searching, you keep–keep searching.

Keep searching, you keep–keep searching!

Songbud Alan: Sometimes I like to think of my brain like its own little island, full of all my unique ideas and thoughts about stuff. And when I meet a new friend like Elba or Josh, it's like I'm building a bridge to their little brain. And as we get to know each other, I learn the cool things that are going on in their noggins, and they get to see things through my eyes.

Songbud Alan: (Picking back up.)

Doesn't always matter what you're trying to find

As long as you keep searching,

Yeah, the world feels alive.

Doesn't always matter what you're trying to find

As long as you keep searching,

Yeah, the world feels alive.

Songbud Alan: So hey, for all of our sakes, never stop searching! And never stop sharing what's inside that amazing brain of yours.

Songbud Alan: (Singing.)

If you feel like you're stranded and nobody understands

All alone on an island building castles out of sand

Just wait, just wait, just wait for the world to catch on

Keep searching, keep searching, yeah you gotta keep, keep going

Keep searching, you keep–keep searching

Keep searching, you keep–keep searching

Doesn't always matter what you're trying to find

As long as you keep searching, yeah, the world feels alive,

On an island, in a tiny lake

On a bigger island, in a big old lake

On another island, all alone, all alone in the ocean

Just floating and nobody knows it

Keep searching, you keep, keep searching

Keep searching.

Lulu: Alan Goffinski, everybody! With harp and vocal accompaniment by the musician Timbre. And that’s it, that’s all that’s happening today. Nothing else cool about to …

(Suddenly, out of nowhere, trumpets … well, uh, trumpet! It’s The Badgers! Lulu gasps.)

Lulu: (Whispered.) What's that?

Badger #1: Excuse me, I have a question.

Badger #2: Me too.

Badger #3: Me three.

Badger #4: Me four.

Lulu: (Whispered, but somehow loudly.) The Badgers.

(The Badgers theme song plays underneath the questions.)

Lulu: Listeners with badgering questions for the expert. You ready?

Elba: Yeah!

Mona: My name is Mona and I'm turning five and, um, what's your favorite island?

Elba: Maybe the island of Elba, because that's my name. (She laughs.)

Gus: My name is Gus. I am six years old. And my question is how, um, animals move [Hiccups.] from island to another island.

Elba: They can go swimming, they can fly, and they can also raft. (A gentle laugh.)

Songbud Alan: Raft?

Elba: Yeah, some animals go on debris like a raft, floating on the water from one island to another.

Songbud Alan: You're saying, like, a frog might just hop on a log and float off to another island?

Elba: Yeah! Yeah, I know of snakes that arrive to islands rafting, yeah.

Songbud Alan: (Imitating a snake again.) Sssssurf’sssss up!

Chase: Hi, my name is Chase and I'm nine years old [A big inhale.] and I want to know, do islands float?

Elba: Some of them do. For instance, the Uru people of Bolivia and Peru live on a group of about, uh, 120 floating islands in Lake Titicaca.

Songbud Alan: Are you saying they make their own islands?

Elba: Yeah, they do. They use bundles of dried reeds to make islands.

Songbud Alan: That's so cool.

Elba: It's amazing, yeah.

Theo: Hi, I'm Theo and I'm seven. Can you order pizza from an island?

Elba: Yeah, yeah, of course. But not all of them. Some islands are too tiny for people to live on them.

Michael R. Jackson: Hi, I’m Michael R. Jackson, playwright and composer of the musical A Strange Loop. Recursive islands are kind of strange loops. If you could rename them, what would you call them?

Elba: Um, maybe “re-re-recursive island.”

Songbud Alan: A re-re-recursive island?

Elba: Yeah.

Lulu: (Pretending to be a Badger who called in, and not a Badger in the studio.) Hey! I’m Lulu. I’m 41. And my question is, what if I was on a triple recursive island, okay? So I'm on an island that's in a lake that's on an island–

Elba: Hmm.

Songbud Alan: Yeah.

Lulu: –That’s in the ocean. And what if, on that Island, I was carrying a bowl of soup, and in that bowl of soup, I put a little crouton, and on that little crouton, I put a tiny thimble of water [Both laugh as they realize what Lulu is doing.] and in that tiny thimble of water, I put a tiny crumb. Would that be a five–a quintuple island? [Elba and Songbud Alan laugh sweetly at the idea.

Elba: Probably, yes.

Songbud Alan: How about that? A quintuple island!

Elba: I'm sure you have an island at some level, right? So, yeah?

Songbud Alan: That'll be a new record.

Lulu: Alright, Alan, I guess we should leave it there. Although I gotta say, I can’t stop thinking about the recursive island inside the volcano. Is it, like–could it be in any danger?

Songbud Alan: Well actually, yes! Because [Pfoo! A puff of smoke erupts! Audio of people checking in on each other after the eruption plays up.] … in 2020 it erupted.  [Lulu gasps.] And, yeah, the island disappeared.

(Lava flowing sounds.)

Lulu: Oh no! Did–did the lava just melt it?

(Bubbling bubbling bubbling until–sizzling, the water dissipates.)

Songbud Alan: No, even wilder! The water around the island? It all got all boiled up.

Lulu: No way!

Songbud Alan: Yeah, just sizzled right into the air, just turned into steam. For years and years, without water surrounding it, it just wasn't an island at all anymore … except …

Lulu: Hmm.

(Upbeat music signals the hope of an ever-changing world.)

Songbud Alan: The rain eventually filled up that volcano cauldron again, and the island has returned!

Lulu: Woah! So it's a resurrected triple-recursive volcano island?

Songbud Alan: It's back, babyyy!

Lulu: Woo!

Songbud Alan: It just goes to show you, the world keeps changing.

Lulu: (Singing Alan’s song from earlier.) Keeps, keeps changing! (Both laugh.)

(A beat.)

Lulu: Alright, we’re gonna leave it there.

Terrestrials was created by me, Lulu Miller, with WNYC Studios.

This episode was reported, produced and all of the music created by none other than the talented Mr. Alan Goffinski! Woohoo!

Our team includes Alan, Mira Burt-Wintonick, Ana González, Tanya Chawla, Sarah Sandbach, Val Powers, and Joe Plourde, with fact-checking by Natalie Middleton.

Special thanks this episode to kid advisors Lola and Evie Young, and to Julie Abodeely, Sarita Bhatt, Shannon Webb-Campbell, Jae Johnson, Jeremy Stern.

And thanks again to the musician Timbre for plucking the harp strings [Lulu imitates the harp.] and singing along!

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation, and the John Templeton Foundation.

Thank you!

And finally, if you have a topic–a story, a creature, a person–you think has been overlooked who we should cover, shoot us an email at :

Songbud Alan and Lulu: (Singing over barking dogs, xylophones, bubbles, and autotune.) terrestrials@wnyc.org!

Lulu: Woohoo! And that’ll do it for today. Thanks so much for listening! See you in a couple spins of this dirty, bullseye-covered, old planet of ours. Woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo! Bye!

# included[].attributes.twitter-headline
The Bullseye: Treasure Hunt to Recursive Islands

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Alan Goffinski (he/him), is an arts administrator, songwriter, and producer from Charlottesville VA. He is the former Executive Director of The Bridge Progressive Arts Initiative and the Charlottesville Mural Project—two city-wide organizations that utilize art and culture as a way for people to better understand themselves, each other, and the world around them. He is also a founding member of the Indianapolis-based whimsical performing arts collective Know No Stranger which has been described as “Sesame Street but for adults... but also for kids.” He produced the experimental music radio program Telemetry in partnership with the University of Virginia. Early in his career, Alan spent years making music in a nationally touring indie-punk band (signed to Victory Records) prior to becoming a social worker specializing in early childhood development. He began making kid’s music under the moniker Little Skunks as a fun way to be a part of the day-to-day lives of his nieces and nephew.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Ana is an audio producer and host who came to WNYC in 2021 to work on Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials. Before that, she produced and hosted Mosaic, a show about immigration experiences from Rhode Island Public Radio. In a former life, she played jazz bass and thinks about everything in terms of rhythm, conversation, and harmony.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Mira Burt-Wintonick (she/her) -- For the past 20 years, Mira’s been creating, story editing and sound designing various shows. Her work often explores grief and complex emotional landscapes (Love Me, Sorry About The Kid, Welcome to Paradise) but she’s also made some absurd comedy podcasts (WireTap, PenPals). She recently directed Wintopia, a feature documentary film about her late filmmaking father, Peter Wintonick, and his search for Utopia.

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Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.body
BLAST OFF! NASA just sent a spacecraft to Europa, one of Jupiter's moons, and on the side of that spacecraft, they included a poem. Not just any poem — a poem by U.S. Poet Laureate Ada Limón. A poem that’s supposed to represent all of humanity to the universe. No biggie.

Host Lulu Miller opens up the floor to kids from all over the country to ask Limón and NASA scientist Cynthia Phillips questions about the mission, outer space, poetry and what a space slushie might taste like. Listen to find out the answers to all their burning questions.

Read Ada Limón’s poem, “In Praise of Mystery,” here.

Read about and follow the Europa Clipper mission here.

Terrestrials was created by Lulu Miller with WNYC Studios. This episode was produced by Ana Gonzales, Mira Burt-Wintonick and Lulu Miller, with help from Tanya Chawla, Alan Goffinski, Sarah Sandbach, Valentina Powers, and Joe Plourde.  Fact checking by Natalie Middleton.

Huge special thanks to the teachers and schools we worked with, including:
Simone Larson, Sarah Gates, Kaleb Wagoner, StreetLab, and CMSP 327 in the Bronx.
Also to WNYC’s Community Partnerships editor, George Bodarky, and to Gretchen McCartney, Michael Taeckens, Vaughan Ashlie Fielder, and biggest thanks to ALL the kids with badgering questions from all over the country with great questions. We couldn’t get to all of them, but we appreciate all of you.

Our advisors are Ana Luz Porzecanski, Andy J. Pizza, Anil Lewis, Dominique Shabazz, Liza Demby, Princess Daazhraii Johnson and Tara Welty.

Learn more about storytellers, listen to music, and dig deeper into the stories you hear on Terrestrials with activities you can do at home or in the classroom on our website, Terrestrialspodcast.org.

Badger us on social media: @radiolab and #TerrestrialsPodcast or by emailing us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Visit the Terrestrials website to learn more about the show, meet our team, listen to the songs and discover fun activities, drawing prompts, music how-tos and games that educators, parents and families might enjoy together.

If you’d like to “badger” a future expert, suggest story ideas or feedback, email us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Listen to just the songs from Terrestrials.

Sign up for Radiolab’s newsletter! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up here.

Radiolab for Kids and Terrestrials are supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, X and Facebook @radiolab.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation.

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Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.show-title
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Terrestrials is a show for people of all ages that explores the strangeness that exists right here on Earth. In each episode, host Lulu Miller (co-host of Radiolab) will introduce you to a creature or earthly phenomenon that will defy your expectations of how nature is supposed to work. Along the way, you'll encounter a chorus of experts, including scientists, surfers, hip hop artists and…a "Songbud" named Alan (indie punk musician Alan Goffinski) who creates original songs for key moments of confusion, discovery or awe. New episodes drop Thursdays. Listen in with your whole family. Or all alone.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundation.

LISTEN TO TERRESTRIALS  | SUPPORT TERRESTRIALS | TERRESTRIALS WANTS YOUR FEEDBACK! | PRESS INQUIRIES  | BECOME A SPONSOR | CONTACT US

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.series[].logo-image.alt-text
Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

# included[].attributes.tease
BLAST OFF! NASA just sent a spacecraft to Europa, one of Jupiter's moons, and on the side of that spacecraft, they included a poem. Not just any poem — a poem by U.S. Poet Laureate Ad...

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OLD-TIMEY NEWS ALERT SOUNDS AND SPACEY SOUNDS

LULU: [in an old newscaster voice] We interrupt your regular Terrestrials programming to bring you breaking news in the world of space… and poetry. That’s right breaking space-poetry news: because NASA has just launched a spaceship from Planet Earth! that will travel all the way to one of Jupiter's moons – a moon called Europa. And that spaceship is carrying fuel and radio transmitters and telescopes and thermal cameras and...a poem. That's right. A poem that is on its way out into the stars.

LULU: Yes, I’m really serious about all this. So… WHY? Why send a poem into space? And why send it to that moon in particular? Because Jupiter has, like dozens of them. Well, that is what we are talking about today. And to help we are joined by NASA scientist, Dr. Cynthia Phillips, who has spent months, years – how, how long Dr. Phillips, working on this mission?

CYNTHIA: It's been years. It's been, you know, maybe I don't want to say how many years, but it's been a lot of years.

LULU: Wait, tell us how many years! how many years

CYNTHIA: Well, so we, we first started planning this mission almost 25 years ago

LULU: Woah.

CYNTHIA: When we were visiting the Jupiter system with a previous spacecraft called the Galileo and the pictures and observations that Galileo took of Europa were so cool that we were like, We have to go back. We have to go back with a mission that just studies Europa.

LULU: Wow. And we are also joined by the one person on Earth selected to write the poem worthy of being engraved on this spaceship, 25 years in the making:  U.S. Poet Laureate Ada Limón. Hi!

ADA: Hello! It's so wonderful to be with you today.

LULU: Um, that doesn't sound like a stressful assignment at all.

ADA: Oh, no! [sarcastically] No stress. Very easy to try to write a poem that will be engraved on a spacecraft that hopes to speak for all of humanity.

CYNTHIA: No pressure.

LULU: Ada, Cynthia I am so excited to have you here today…AND now is the part where i make u sing the theme song with me

ADA: Haha

LULU and ALAN: [singing] Terrestrials, terrestrials, we are not the worst, we are the –

ADA: Best-rials.

LULU: Yes you got it! I am your host lulu miller, joined as always by my songbud,

Alan: [singing] Woo hoo hoo

LULU: Alan!

ALAN: [sings] REACHING FOR EUROPA WITH A POEM! HELLO!

LULU: Now, usually the way Terrestrials works is that I narrate a story about something strange that happened right here on earth. And at the end, I get out of the way and let kids ask questions to the expert involved in the story. And the thing is… that part, when I move away from the microphone, turns out to be pretty much everyone’s favorite part. And so, for news as momentous as this launch, and with guests as esteemed as a NASA scientist and the US Poet Laureate, I thought I’d turn over the mic to the people who ask the best questions: YOU. Our listeners. Over the last few months we collected questions from kids all over the country, and beyond, questions about what is going on with this mission, why it matters to science, and why poetry is part of it. So, you’re gonna hear mostly from them, from you, from yourselves… Cynthia, Ada, you guys ready?

ADA: I am absolutely ready.

CYNTHIA: This is going to be great

EVAN: Hi my name is Evan, and I’m 9 years old. So the spaceship is going to one of Jupiter's moons. How many moons does Jupiter have?

CYNTHIA: Uh, you know, that's one of those hard questions, right? so, cause we're always discovering more. I think the latest number I saw was like 95 moons, but I could be wrong. They could have found another one last week I haven't heard about yet. So, there's a lot, a lot of moons.

LULU: Ok, so, almost 100 moons. Are they ever like, I'm just picturing suddenly like someone playing pool. Do those moons ever collide with each other?

CYNTHIA: Yeah, no, no, that's a good question. And yeah, collisions are possible. [collision sounds] Most of those collisions would have happened sort of early on in the solar system, back when everything was kind of new and things were crashing into each other. [more collision sounds] Nowadays, things have kind of settled down.

LULU: So a bunch of kids wondered… of all those moons.

AMRITA: Why Europa?

Cynthia: Yeah, so, the Jupiter system, so it has these moons that are really, really cool looking moons, and one of them, Io, that's close to Jupiter, it has volcanoes that are erupting like all the time. [VOLCANO SOUND]

LULU: With like lava and?

CYNTHIA: Mm hmm. There's like lava flows. There's plumes. There's like these sulfur deposits on the surface. We sometimes call it the pizza moon because it, seriously, it looks like a pizza. There's like red and orange and yellow and then like these little dark circle things that are actually, they’re lava flows but they kind of look like anchovies

LULU: What!

CYNTHIA:  Or like olives

LULU: Wow. love that, ok

CYNTHIA: So yeah, so, Io is totally this pizza moon. But then Europa, it's the next one out and its surface is covered with ice.

SFX CRACKLE

CYNTHIA: And then some of our models started showing us that actually under all that ice, there could be water.

WATER/SHINY SOUNDS

CYNTHIA: We think that Europa has more water than all of Earth's oceans combined.

LULU: Really?

CYNTHIA: So a huge ocean. So yeah It's a crazy place. When we think about water out in our solar system, like way out far away from the sun, this huge ocean.

WAVES AND WATER SOUNDS

LULU: [in a state of wonder and amazement] Gosh, an ocean in space.

CYNTHIA: Yeah

WAVES AND WATER SOUNDS CONTINUE

LULU: Turns out the tagline to NASA’s mission to Europa is: “Exploring Jupiter’s Ocean World”

CYNTHIA: The reason why we've been working on this Europa mission for 25 years is that as soon as we found that ocean, we were like, “There could be life in that ocean.”

LULU: Wow.

LENOX: Hi I’m Lenox. I’m 9 years old. I heard that the space craft is named “The Clipper”. Do you know why it’s named that?

CYNTHIA: Uh, yeah. So back in the 1800s, there were these giant sailing ships, and one of them was called the clipper ship. And it was a ship that had like these big sails on it, and it was very fast. And so they kind of like the imagery of this sailing ship.

LULU:  It's like a sailboat in space. looking at maybe oceans in space. That’s neat.

CYNTHIA: Yup.

LULU: Nautical-themed. It's fitting.

CYNTHIA: Yes.

WAVES AND WATER SPRAY SOUND

AARNAV: My name is Aarnav Rudraraju. I’m 10 years old. My question is:  How big is the spacecraft?

CYNTHIA: The whole spacecraft is going to be as big as a basketball court,

LULU: Oh!

CYNTHIA: So it's going to be gigantic.  This is actually one of the biggest spacecraft that we've ever built and launched.

LULU: Wow. And just to be clear there aren’t any humans on it. It's purely machine?

CYNTHIA: Yeah

GRAYSON: Hi my name is Grayson. I’m seven years old. My question is: what if the spacecraft blows up?

CYNTHIA: Mmm. That's one of the scariest things about launch. Once it launches, once it's safe in space, then the chances of it blowing up are pretty small. BUT yeah, that's one of the, it's one of the scariest parts of working on a mission like this. You could spend 25 years working on something and it doesn't work. You know, something happens, something blows up..

LULU: What on earth would you do if it did?

CYNTHIA: I'd cry. Seriously. Like, I, you know, I'd cry. Because this is, you know, the spacecraft's like a friend.

EVA: Hi I’m Eva I’m 9 years old.: Have you touched the spacecraft?

CYNTHIA: I have not touched it, but they don't let me touch things, right? You have to be really, really special to actually get to touch it.

LULU: Ha ha

CYNTHIA: But, I have breathed the same air as it.

LULU: So, you’ve been in the same room with it, or?

CYNTHIA: I've been in the same room. Yeah. So we were building it in this giant clean room. And so everyone who goes in there and all the stuff it has to be cleaned and then cleaned and then cleaned again. So we make sure we don't bring any dirt or dust or microbes or particles with us. And so I actually got to go in the clean room and, you know, they had an engineer who was making sure I didn't get too close to the spacecraft, but I got to go pretty close. And I was, seriously, I was sitting there. I was so excited.

LULU: Did you blow it a little kiss or like enclose any secret meditation or prayer on it for good luck?

CYNTHIA: I didn't, but I definitely said hi to it. Like I definitely, I sent it some mental kind of like, “good luck, you're awesome,” kind of wishes to it.

LULU: Alright, switching gears to the poem engraved on the surface of that very spacecraft. A lot of kids asked a version of this question, but I am gonna toss it to Jude, aged 5, who, when he heard NASA was sending a poem into space asked simply:

JUDE: What for?

CYNTHIA: That's a really good question. So NASA has a tradition of putting little messages on its spacecraft. And one of the most famous was one that went on the Voyager spacecraft. So these were two spacecraft that were launched in the 1970s. They're actually still going…And, we think in, you know, like thousands of years, they might make it to a different star system.

LULU: Wow.

CYNTHIA: And so when the spacecraft were being designed, um, scientists realized that maybe if there's an alien civilization out there, these spacecraft might be the first signs of Earth that they ever find. Um, and so they wanted to put a message on it. And they put it in the form of what's called The Golden Record.

NEEDLE DROP, VINYL STATIC. SAXOPHONE IN.

LULU: So like an actual physical record like the kind you’d put on an old fashioned record player to play music?

CYNTHIA: Yeah! But instead of just putting music, they put sounds from Earth. So they put people talking

LULU: in 55 different languages

VOYAGER SOUNDS: Hola y saludos a todos…

CYNTHIA: and they put sounds of nature

LULU: Birds, chimpanzees, whale song

VOYAGER AUDIO crying baby

LULU: A mother soothing her baby

VOYAGER AUDIO mother saying oh come on now

LULU: Songs from India, Senegal, Peru....

VOYAGER AUDIO singing

LULU The sound of a train..... Of thunder.....  Of a kiss!

VOYAGER AUDIO ENDS kiss sound

CYNTHIA: And they basically put all sorts of things that represent the earth and humanity as a species.

LULU: How beautiful.

CYNTHIA: Yeah. And there's even like a little map on the record, that maybe an alien civilization could use to figure out where this thing came from.

LULU: Huh. Was there a record player in those spacecrafts shooting out way into space?

CYNTHIA: No, but there's instructions on how to build one, right?

LULU: Oh! That’s amazing!

CYNTHIA: And so the assumption was, you know, if these aliens are smart enough to be able to, you know, like, find our spacecraft and understand our message, then they can understand the instructions for how to like, how to build this record player to play it.

LULU: Are they in, like, English or is it Ikea where you get the stick figures or...?

CYNTHIA: You know, that's a good question. I think it's more, like diagrams. So yeah, I think it's like Ikea style.

LULU: Um wow okay but so going back to Jude’s question of “why send a poem into space”, your answer is basically that it’s supposed to be a message from earth on the off chance an alien actually encounters it?

CYNTHIA: yeah and whether or not anyone actually ever finds these things, it's a way of symbolically bringing humanity along for a ride. I think it's a really important process to go through thinking about, you know, what would we want to say? What traces of Earth would we want to bring with us? What is, what is the best of ourselves that we could take with us beyond this planet into space?

LULU: Woah. What a question!

CYNTHIA: Yes

LULU: So turning now to the one person on earth that NASA hoped could answer that question in verse form–

ADA: Ugh

LULU: U.S. Poet Laureate, Ada Limón.

ADA: We definitely need to get Taylor Swift to write this instead

LULU:Hahaha. We’ve got some questions for you.

ASHWIN: Hello. My name is Ashwin. I’m 10 years old. and my question is: How did you feel when NASA asked you to write the poem?

ADA: Yeah, wonderful. We all hopped on Zoom. And the team at NASA explained the importance of Europa, the importance of the mission. And as they talked, I thought, Oh, I absolutely am so interested in doing this. And I immediately said, yes, yes, yes, yes. I want to do it. Thank you so much for asking me. Wow. What an honor.

LULU: No pause. You didn’t sleep on it? In the room?

ADA: No pause. No pause. And then as soon as we got off the call, I thought. Oh, no, how am I going to write this poem?

LULU AND ADA: Hahaha

ADA: And I thought, how difficult this is going to be. And so I went from this enthusiastic, wholehearted, yes, with my whole body to being basically terrified.

MENGSU: Hi everyone! I am Mengsu. I’m a teacher. My question is, was there any mandates to write the poem?

ADA: Yeah, no, they gave me some parameters. You know it needs to be, um, something that is able to be read by someone who is in fourth grade, and it needed to include water. And it needs to be, I think it was under 200 words.

LULU: Hm

ADA: And that's, that's where the real sort of fear and anxiety set in.

LULU: Because how do you actually represent something so big in so few words?

ADA: Yeah exactly..

LULU: Now before we move on to how Ada tried to move through that fear, we just got SO MANY questions from kids about WHAT THE HAIKU a POET LAUREATE is, that we’re gonna to play a brief [dooo doo doo!] lightning round we are calling

Lulu and Alan SINGING: WHAT- aerate is a poet LAUREATE?

ADA: Laughs

LULU: Number one:

LEO: Hi Im Leo. My question is: Wait, so are you, like, the best poet in the world?

ADA: Um no, Leo, I am not the best poet in the world. But I was chosen by Dr. Carla Hayden, the Librarian of Congress, to be the 24th poet laureate. And what that means is that I am asked to expand the audience for poetry.

LULU: Number two:

ANIRUDH: Where do you work as the Poet Laureate? And who do you work for?

ADA: I work for the Library. The Library of Congress, the largest library in the world.

LULU: Hmm

ADA: And it has so many different types of  books, but also it has things like. The contents of President Lincoln's pockets

LULU: What?

ADA: On the day that he was shot.

LULU: Gasp!

ADA: Yes.

LULU: What's in what there?

ADA: Well, he has a few different spectacles, and one pair of spectacles that he had clearly mended with a piece of thread because they were falling apart.

LULU: Wow. Number three:

REMMY: Hi my name is Remmy, and I’m 10 years old. What do you usually do as a poet laureate?

ADA: I spend a lot of time on the road and I give readings all over the United States. I speak to a lot of high schools and different schools and  different libraries. In fact, I only have four more states to go to.. And then I will have gone to every single state in the United States.

LULU: What are the four left?

ADA: Oh, well, I have North Dakota and South Dakota, Maine and Alaska

LULU: Wow, neat. And that concludes

LULU/ALAN: [singin g] what-aureate is the poet laureate.

LULU: So, back now to your questions about the mission at hand, the mission to Jupiter's moon, the mission to this faraway space ocean…

ROBILIANA: Hi, my name is Robiliana Santos Soriego, and I’m 16 years old. If there is marine life in the ocean, in the moon, what flavor would it be?

Cynthia: Whoa

ROBILIANA: Like, if we ate it would it taste different than the food we have in our oceans?

CYNTHIA: laughs You know, that's a, that's, that's not a question I thought about before.That's a really good question. Um, so, so yeah, if there's life on Europa, Very likely, it's a completely separate, independent origin of life that's totally different from Earth. And so it's possible that, you know, we don't even know if that life will be based on DNA, on the same amino acids that ours are based on. And so, if we find life on Europa, there's no guarantee that it even would be edible for humans, BUT you know, maybe we'll have discovered, like, a new flavor of the tastiest fish ever…

LULU: And any guesses from little things, you know about anything about its chemical composition? Like, I don't know what it might like, would it taste a little more nitrogeny?

CYNTHIA: Yeah, like, if you're making a frozen drink out of Europa, what it would taste like, you know. You're making a slushie, right? And so you take some of Europa's ice, and then you'd have to, it'd have to be a little bit salty. It could have like sulfur

CRASH

LULU: Raining down from nearby Io’s volcanoes

CYNTHIA: and be kind of stinky.

LULU: Would it maybe be fizzy? [ZZP SFX] Like if there's carbon dioxide up there?

CYNTHIA: Yeah! You know, probably the chances are it's much more likely to be gross than it is to be delicious, but you never know…

ALAN: [sings] It’s an icy salty fizzy slushee. Maybe sour maybe stinky. Probably won’t want to drinky (slurp slurp ahhh)

LULU: Alright, well, the spacecraft that just might be able to get better answers to that question has just begun its long journey to Europa... and when we come back, we are gonna hear the poem  that Ada finally wrote and hear questions from you about what it mean. Stick with us.

[BREAK]

LULU: Terrestrials is back. I am Lulu: and right now, as I say this, a spacecraft is soaring through space towards one of Jupiter's moons...called Europa, a moon that likely has an ocean on it. BTW if you would like to watch video of the launch of the spacecraft and read updates on the Clipper, can do that by heading on over to NASA plus. That’s plus dot nasa dot gov.

LULU: When we left off, U.S. Poet Laureate Ada Limón had been asked to write a poem that would be engraved on the outside of the spaceship to represent a message from all of humanity! No bigs. But she was stuck. Like real stuck.

ADA: Terrified.

LULU: So we resume with the tale of what she did to move through that… which we learned about thanks to questions from kids all over the world

ELIZABETH: My name is Elizabeth and I’m 10 years old. What steps did you take to write the poem?

ADA: Well, I had about three months to write the poem. And I was going to Hawaiʻi, to a town, I'm not kidding, named Haʻikū,

LULU: ha!

ADA: and I was staying in the house of a former U.S. Poet Laureate W. S. Merwin, And so my husband and I went there. It's inside an incredible palm forest. All of these beautiful, different varieties of palm trees. And so I got to watch all of the different species of birds and all the geckos inside and outside the house. And I had this real space to think and sit with the idea of what I wanted to offer. And so I began writing the poem

SCRIBBLE SOUNDS AND MUSIC

ADA: I was trying to imagine the audience being sort of out in space, right? Whether there were other beings out there, whether the audience was the stars themselves

LONELY SPACEY MUSIC

ADA: And I kept imagining a loneliness.

LONELY SPACEY MUSIC + SCRIBBLES

ADA: And so, I would read a draft to my husband, and he would say, “Hmm, you know, I think you need to stop writing a NASA poem.”

LULU: What do you think your husband heard when he said that?

ADA: I think he was hearing maybe more of a scientific approach, more stiff and formal type of writing. Maybe more of, um, following the assignment. Thinking of it as, um, presenting facts about Europa. Poets have one really beautiful way of procrastinating. And let me tell you about it.

LULU: Ok.

ADA: What we love to do is research.

LULU: Laughing

ADA: And it means that instead of writing the poem, I think, you know what, I'm going to go Google everything about this moon of Jupiter. And it's a wonderful distraction, and it's a great way of learning. But it often doesn't actually help you make the poem. but it is our way of, um, just not writing.

LULU: Laughing

ADA: So, I think that that's part of what I was doing was thinking, “Oh, I'm going to teach people about Europa.” And that’s what he was hearing. And so what I needed to shift was, “Oh no, I need to speak to Europa and have this be a reaching out”.

LULU: Was there anything that like–a bird or a tree or a moment–that led you down the right path, the rabbit hole that would turn into the more us poem? I dunno. There might not be. But, do you have anything in your head?

ADA: Yeah! I was in Hawaiʻi, and I was staring at this palm frond and the palms really move. They sort of glow and move. They have a bounciness to them in the wind. And there was a little gecko that was stuck on the underside, that was completely upside down. And he was hanging on this palm frond. And I thought, “How amazing! That little dude is just, you know, bouncing in the wind back and forth.” And I thought of the line: we too are made of wonders.

LULU: “We too.” Meaning, like, Europa and Earth are both made of wonders?

ADA: Yeah. That's where the poem shifted. Then I realized that really the audience was us here on this beautiful planet. And it includes everyone on earth. And it also includes plants and animals. So it needed to be from all of us to all of us and the, “I”, “me”, “Ada” had to be taken out of it. And that's where the poem really reached a momentum, where I could follow it through.

MAADHAV: Hi. My name is Maadhav Sharma. I’m 11 years old. What did you struggle with to come up with in this poem?

ADA: Oh, that's a great question. Um, I think that what I struggled with the most was how to use a we. Um, to be honest, I am someone that's always been a little suspicious of a we, um, you know, as a Latina, as, um, a woman, there are times where I even think of “we the people” and I think, am I included in that “we”? I want to know if I'm included in that “we”.

LULU: And that, of course, is from our constitution

ADA: Exactly. And so I think that as a poet, I often don't use we, And so, um, I think the most difficult thing I had to do was actually surrender to the “we”. And remember that, uh, that the “we” had to represent everybody and to try to include trees and animals and plants. And so I had to really release that idea of the “I” and make room for my most communal voice.  And that was where the poem took hold.

LULU: Really took hold. That poem is now engraved into the spacecraft, and Ada's words are literally touching the cold of space, collecting stardust as they blast towards Jupiter’s moon. She did it. She found a way to write a message from ALL of us here in this water world to Jupiter’s waterworld… in under 200 word. Um alright, well, would you be up for, for reading it?

ADA: I would be honored.

ADA READS: In Praise of Mystery: A Poem for Europa

Arching under the night sky inky

with black expansiveness, we point

to the planets we know, we

pin quick wishes on stars. From earth,

we read the sky as if it is an unerring book

of the universe, expert and evident.

Still, there are mysteries below our sky:

the whale song, the songbird singing

its call in the bough of a wind-shaken tree.

We are creatures of constant awe,

curious at beauty, at leaf and blossom,

at grief and pleasure, sun and shadow.

And it is not darkness that unites us,

not the cold distance of space, but

the offering of water, each drop of rain,

each rivulet, each pulse, each vein.

O second moon, we, too, are made

of water, of vast and beckoning seas.

We, too, are made of wonders, of great

and ordinary loves, of small invisible worlds,

of a need to call out through the dark.

CYNTHIA: My first reaction was just “Wow.”

LULU: NASA scientist, Cynthia Phillips again.

CYNTHIA: And I think my second reaction was also, “Wow.”

ADA: We got to visit the jet propulsion lab. And we got to see the Europa Clipper being built in the clean room. and I went into a sound booth and recorded the poem and I think I did it maybe three or four times. And when I came out, I hadn't realized that the sound was being pumped into the next room over.

CYNTHIA: Oh my goodness, if I thought reading it myself was amazing, listening to her read it, oh. It makes me tear up, honestly.

ADA: When I came out, everyone was crying and clapping.

LULU: Oh!

LULU: Alright now, uh, back to our kid questions:

OWEN: Hello my name is Owen, and I’m 10 years old. My question is why do the words in the poem not rhyme?

ADA: Let me tell you, I love a good rhyme! There are a few moments. If you read closely, there are some rhymes.

LULU: Mmm!

ADA: Let's see if I can read one for you, ok. “We are creatures of constant awe/ curious at beauty/ at leaf and blossom/ at grief and pleasure…”

LULU: Aw! Yeah. Wait, where is it?

ADA: Leaf and grief.

LULU: Oh yeah!

ADA: Um. If you see “each drop of rain/ each rivulet/ each pulse/ each vein.”

LULU: Ah, rain and vein!

ADA: So, actually, there are rhymes throughout the poem, my friend. Ha ha ha

AMY: My name is Amy. My age is 13. The line that I liked was “We too are made of wonders, Of great and ordinary loves”. What does “ordinary loves” mean?

ADA:  Oh, I love that you asked that question. You know, I was thinking about how poets and artists and all of us, we like drama. We like big loves. We like really epic stories. We like everything to be at a ten! And I wanted to praise the little loves. Maybe it's the love between two friends and they're just friends and they can say, I love you. Maybe it's like, just like you and your mom and you can say, Oh, I love my mom. The moment where you can say, I love that coffee cart guy, ha who gives me the good donut, I love that, that bird in the tree, I love that everyday when I get on the bus that particular bus driver always says howdy instead of good morning.

LULU: And that line again, in the poem, you're talking about the similarities with Europa and the water up there, and also the ordinary loves up there. What kind of ordinary loves do you imagine might be on Europa?

ADA: Yeah. I mean, I'm so curious because it could just be, you know, the way certain elements love each other so that they bond, you know?

LULU: Haha yeah!

ADA: It’s just the different kinds of attachments that happen every day.

MUSIC ENDS

SAMANAA: Hi, I'm Samanaa. I'm 13 years old. My question is, the things we've sent up so far mostly focuses on the good parts of being human, but what about the bad parts, like war and climate change?

ADA: Yeah, I think that's a great question. I don’t want to not recognize how hard we can be on one another and the destruction we’re so deeply capable of. And that’s there in the poem. That's one of the reasons that I wanted to put in, “grief and pleasure.” You know, that there's sun and shadow, but then it's followed by the line, “it is not darkness that unites us”. The selfishness, the lean towards war, the things that keep us separate. I don't think that those things define us..

LULU: Okay speaking of sending up our… uh, less..  Good parts of us,  I have a question, myself, for NASA Scientist Cynthia, that is going to really switch gears here. Uh, my colleague Latif Nasser told me there might be some… poop… up on the moon, on Earth’s moon. Because when Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, the first astronauts who landed on the moon, when they were up there they were up there for a while and they had to go, and they just left it in a baggie that’s probably still there. Is that true?

CYNTHIA: That is actually true.

LULU: Gasp!

CYNTHIA: So we've sent 12 astronauts to the moon. Um, and you know, when you got to go, you got to go, even if you're an astronaut, even if you're on the moon. So there literally are bags of trash on the moon that had astronaut poop in them. And, you know, it's kind of a gross thing to think about, but science, there are scientists who like thinking about really gross things. And so they've actually thought about, well, you know, that poop has now been there for like 50 years sitting on the surface. Could any of it …And, you know, you think about your poop. Like, why is it so gross? It's because it's filled with bacteria. Like, could any of it have survived there for 50 years? We have no idea. But isn't that kind of an interesting question? I mean, it's a gross question, but it's kind of an interesting

LULU: And like you could find out, right? If we went back and opened the bag, and like are there little bugs in there?

CYNTHIA: Yes. So literally, NASA, people have actually thought about designing a mission to go back and bring back an Apollo astronaut trash bag from the moon, bring it back to Earth and study it. And look at those poop samples and see, is there any, are there any microbes that managed to somehow survive on the surface of the moon for 50 years?

LULU: Wow. So, and like –

CYNTHIA: it's a gross question, but it's not a crazy question.

LULU: No, it's profoundly interesting scientifically,

CYNTHIA: Yeah, yeah, it is. It is.

LULU: And I guess instead of calling that the famous Apollo mission, which is Greek for sun, you could call it, I'm just looking this up, Kaka! The Kaka Mission, which I think we all know what that is Greek for.

CYNTHIA: Hahaha I love it

LULU: Gosh, that makes me think differently, like, tonight when I look up at the moon. Just picture what else is up there.

CYNTHIA: There is poop on the moon.

LULU: Hahahaha thanks.Thanks for going with me there. Alright! Last few kid questions before we let you both go. This one’s for Ada.

ELI: Hi My name is Eli. And I’m 14 years old. Do you feel like a part of you is going to space?

ADA: I do. I do feel like a part of me is going to space.

MUSIC ENTERS

ADA: Because I made the poem and the line breaks and the stanza breaks, that you have. my own breath in it. The way that I read it, the way that I, ya know, made the poem. And, so, in some ways it is my little, little human breath is going

SOUND DESIGN BREATHING

CAITLIN: My name is Caitlin and I'm 14 years old. I want to know why people would think that people in Europa would speak English if there's people on our planet that don't even understand English.

CYNTHIA: That’s a great question. We've transited messages into space using radio waves. And those messages have been encoded using math. Because we think that math is probably a much more universal language than say like English or Spanish or something.

LULU: Hmm

CYNTHIA:  Um, but yeah. So the message that we're sending with Europa Clipper, it was written in English, but we thought about the whole other language thing. And so we basically, we took the word for water in just over this huge variety of languages as spoken by a native speaker, and then we encoded those into these waveforms,

WORDS:Aqua, ur, miri

CYNTHIA: The languages were chosen by a team of professional linguists to, to represent languages from, you know, every different language family.

WORDS: miso, amasi, nero, vater, vesi…

CYNTHIA: In the center of the design, is the encoding for the american sign language word for water.

Droplet sound

LULU: That sign by the way is made by holding up your three middle fingers like a W, and then bouncing them on your chin a couple times

CYNTHIA: Yeah

LULU: I love that

ASHANTI: Hi, my name is Ashanti. 13 years old.  How can feel the astronauts, when they go to space, how they feel a long time with they no have family or friends with them?

CYNTHIA: Hmm. Yeah, that's a really good question. So yes, I think that being in space is an intensely lonely experience. What I've heard from astronauts who are up on the International Space Station, um, the favorite thing that they like to do whenever they have time when they're not working or sleeping is they like to look out the window down at the earth.

LULU: Hmm

CYNTHIA: So, yeah, I think that they miss their friends and their family and their homes. I think it's hard. I think it's a really exciting and fun thing to be an astronaut. But it's also a hard job.

LULU: And you think that looking out the window is a kind of longing?

CYNTHIA: Yeah. Yeah.

LULU: It’s a kind of evidence of loneliness?

CYNTHIA: To say, yep, the earth is still there, you know. I will get to go home.

ETHAN: Hi, my name is Ethan. And I’m 12 years old. Do you think there are any similarities between writing poetry and space exploration?

CYNTHIA: I think there really are. When you write a poem, you're trying to, in a few words, capture something that's bigger than the poem itself. And you think of a spacecraft? It's something that's crafted. It's something that's, that's engineered, that's, that's created, right?

LULU: Craft, right.

CYNTHIA: And you know, poetry, right? You're crafting a poem. It's kind of the same hands on sort of almost artisan nature in both cases, right? So you're crafting it, but then you send it out into the world. You send it out into space, and you see what comes back. I can imagine what, say, the new pictures of Europa are going to look like, but I have no idea. It might find things that we never dreamed of when we built the spacecraft, just like a poem or a song can take on meaning and resonance beyond kind of what was originally intended.

ADA: And that's what's sort of fun about poetry, is that it begins in curiosity and then it ends in more curiosity. And exploration is the same way. We begin with a question. We get a little bit of an answer, and that means Oh! That leads us to another question.

LULU: I love that, it’s like all of that intense crafting of a spacecraft or a poem that comes from the human mind, gets you far beyond the human mind.

ADA: Yeag. All of the arts and science in that way exist in questions, in wonder, in interrogation. They really make a beautiful pairing.

LULU. Well, that is the best place to leave it. Ada, Cynthia, Congratulations on the launch. I will be crossing my fingers as your words and work continue out into… the unknown. Thanks so much for talking to us

ADA: Thank you so much. It has been such a pleasure to talk with you all.

CYNTHIA: Thank you for such great questions. This was really fun.

LULU: Ummm a few exciting tidbits before we go. First of all, Ada’s poem is now available as a gorgeous childrens book. It’s called In Praise of Mystery. It’s also available in Spanish: Elogio al Misterio. The illustrations are by Peter Sís. They are celestial and beautiful. Get a copy. Wrap up in the poem and all its imagery.

Big shout out to Latif Nasser and his TV show Connected. Which you can watch on Netflix. That’s where he talks about the poop stuff. He has a whole episode about poop. Not just on the moon, but also in other places. Go check that out. He is just as wonderful on TV as he is on the radio. And finally, if you'd like to keep tabs on the Clipper as it heads out to Jupitar’s moon, see photos, read updates and so much more, just check out the links right there in our show notes.

Terrestrials was created by me, Lulu miller with WNYC Studios. This episode was produced by Ana González, Mira Burt-Wintonick and me. With help from Tanya Chawla, Alan Goffinski, Sarah Sandbach, Valentina Powers, and Joe Plourde. Fact checking by Natalie Middleton.

HUGE SPECIAL THANKS TO THE TEACHERS and schools we worked with, including:
Simone Larson, Sarah Gates, Kaleb Wagoner, StreetLab, CMSP 327 in the Bronx - go sharks!
And also to WNYC’s awesome Community Partnerships editor, George Bodarky,
and to Gretchen McCartney, Michael Taeckens, Vaughan Ashlie Fielder, and BIGGEST THANKS TO ALL THE BADGERS. Kids with badgering questions from all over the country - literally hundreds of you- with great questions, we couldn’t get to all of them, but we appreciate ALL OF YOU.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. THANK YOU!

Catch you in a couple spins of this watery old planet of ours. Blowin’ a kiss to the Clipper. SMOOCH SOUND!

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Alan Goffinski (he/him), is an arts administrator, songwriter, and producer from Charlottesville VA. He is the former Executive Director of The Bridge Progressive Arts Initiative and the Charlottesville Mural Project—two city-wide organizations that utilize art and culture as a way for people to better understand themselves, each other, and the world around them. He is also a founding member of the Indianapolis-based whimsical performing arts collective Know No Stranger which has been described as “Sesame Street but for adults... but also for kids.” He produced the experimental music radio program Telemetry in partnership with the University of Virginia. Early in his career, Alan spent years making music in a nationally touring indie-punk band (signed to Victory Records) prior to becoming a social worker specializing in early childhood development. He began making kid’s music under the moniker Little Skunks as a fun way to be a part of the day-to-day lives of his nieces and nephew.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Ana is an audio producer and host who came to WNYC in 2021 to work on Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials. Before that, she produced and hosted Mosaic, a show about immigration experiences from Rhode Island Public Radio. In a former life, she played jazz bass and thinks about everything in terms of rhythm, conversation, and harmony.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Mira Burt-Wintonick (she/her) -- For the past 20 years, Mira’s been creating, story editing and sound designing various shows. Her work often explores grief and complex emotional landscapes (Love Me, Sorry About The Kid, Welcome to Paradise) but she’s also made some absurd comedy podcasts (WireTap, PenPals). She recently directed Wintopia, a feature documentary film about her late filmmaking father, Peter Wintonick, and his search for Utopia.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

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Investigating a strange world.

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The Greenland shark is ugly. Its eyes look cloudy and dead. Its snout and fins are stubby. Its meat is poisonous. And that may be part of why most people have overlooked these sharks for so long. But there was a rumor circulating among Greenland villagers that this deepsea dweller could survive for centuries. Scientist John Steffensen went on a hunt to see if this was true and discovered that the Greenland shark can live for more than 500 years, making it the longest living vertebrate on the planet. Biologist Steve Austad explains how the shark avoids death for so long and discovers that its secret to longevity comes at a cost. It seems that to live a longer life, it opts out of some of the best stuff life has to offer: adventure, friends and companionship.

Terrestrials was created by Lulu Miller with WNYC Studios. This episode was produced by Brenna Farrel, and Mira Burt-Wintonick, with help from Alan Goffinski, Ana González, Tanya Chawla, Sarah Sandbach, Valentina Powers, and Joe Plourde. Fact-checking by Natalie Middleton.

Our advisors are Ana Luz Porzecanski, Andy J. Pizza, Anil Lewis, Dominique Shabazz, Liza Demby, Princess Daazhraii Johnson and Tara Welty.

Learn more about storytellers, listen to music, and dig deeper into the stories you hear on Terrestrials with activities you can do at home or in the classroom on our website, Terrestrialspodcast.org. Badger us on social media: @radiolab   and #TerrestrialsPodcast or by emailing us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Visit the Terrestrials website to learn more about the show, meet our team, listen to the songs and discover fun activities, drawing prompts, music how-tos and games that educators, parents and families might enjoy together.

If you’d like to “badger” a future expert, suggest story ideas or feedback, email us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Listen to just the songs from Terrestrials.

Sign up for Radiolab’s newsletter! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up here.

Radiolab for Kids and Terrestrials are supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, X and Facebook @radiolab.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation.

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Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Terrestrials is a show for people of all ages that explores the strangeness that exists right here on Earth. In each episode, host Lulu Miller (co-host of Radiolab) will introduce you to a creature or earthly phenomenon that will defy your expectations of how nature is supposed to work. Along the way, you'll encounter a chorus of experts, including scientists, surfers, hip hop artists and…a "Songbud" named Alan (indie punk musician Alan Goffinski) who creates original songs for key moments of confusion, discovery or awe. New episodes drop Thursdays. Listen in with your whole family. Or all alone.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundation.

LISTEN TO TERRESTRIALS  | SUPPORT TERRESTRIALS | TERRESTRIALS WANTS YOUR FEEDBACK! | PRESS INQUIRIES  | BECOME A SPONSOR | CONTACT US

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

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Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

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The Greenland shark is ugly. Its eyes look cloudy and dead. Its snout and fins are stubby. Its meat is poisonous. And that may be part of why most people have overlooked these sharks ...

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Lulu Miller: Three, two, one!

Jonny Moens: Imagine your flesh turns to poison.

(Crunchy, dark guitar music begins to play, the soundtrack to an underwater spaghetti Western–the kind of music that would play as one person says to another, “This town ain’t big enough for the two of us,” but if they were sharks.)

Lulu: And your eyes turn cloudy.

Jonny: Your arms shrink into stubby fins.

Lulu: And you slip down into the deepest, coldest depths of the ocean.

Jonny: Swimming about, looking for something to bite.

Lulu: You are nearly invisible in the darkness.

Jonny: And then, suddenly, this little carcass–

(A ghostly fish-corpse, played by a theremin, drifts past.)

Lulu: –A corpse, a fish corpse, floats by.

Jonny: You sniff it.

Lulu: And instead of turning away from the stinking dead flesh …

Jonny: Chomp!

(Bubbles rush by as you bite down.)

Lulu: You have become …

Jonny: A Greenland shark!

(The music fades away.)

Lulu: All right, now is the part where I make you sing–

Jonny: Oh no.

Lulu: –The theme song with me. [She laughs.] Oh, yes!

Songbud Alan Goffinski and Lulu: (Singing over the theme music.) Terrestrials, terrestrials, we are not the worst, we're the–

Jonny: (Uncertain.) The best?

Songbud Alan Goffinski and Lulu: (Singing over the theme music.) The bestrials!

Lulu: Yeah! You got it! Terrestrials is a show where we uncover the strangeness waiting right here on Earth. I am your host, Lulu Miller, joined as always by my songbud …

Songbud Alan: (Singing with autotune, as if a robot.) Woo–hoo–hoo!

Lulu: … Alan!

Songbud Alan: Going deep and dark with sharks!

Lulu: This season we’re looking at creatures that are usually–

Songbud Alan and Lulu: (Together.) Overlooked! [A beat.] Shh!

Lulu: And today's very special storyteller is …

Jonny: My name is Jonny Moens, I'm a freelance science journalist. And I have spent a lot of my time underwater.

(Magical, soft music plays, a blanket of water above you.)

Lulu: Johnny’s mom is from Eritrea, on the coast of Africa, and his dad is from Belgium, in Europe–and happens to love scuba diving! So when they traveled between those places and beyond, they’d often explore the oceans.

Jonny: One of my most beautiful memories is watching manta rays glide over like massive kites.

Lulu: As soon as he was big enough to put on a scuba mask, Jonny would go out scuba diving with his dad, spending hours swimming among all kinds of cool creatures, like …

(As each one gives another name, the creatures swim past, leaving bubbles in their wake.)

Jonny: Sea turtles.

Lulu: Clownfish.

Jonny: Eels.

Lulu: Sea urchins.

Jonny: Moonfish.

Lulu: And …

Jonny: Whale sharks.

(“Dun-dun” goes Lulu in the style of the theme song from the movie Jaws.)

Jonny: White tip sharks.

(Dun-dun.)

Jonny: Leopard sharks.

(Dun-dun! Here comes something that could be scary … or scary beautiful!)

Lulu: All of which Jonny found, not terrifying, but …

Jonny: Beautiful!

Lulu: … Whereas Greenland sharks, even Jonny, a shark lover, admits …

Jonny: They look kinda dead.

(A bell tolls as Lulu laughs at Jonny’s brutal assessment. The ghostly theremin returns.)

Jonny: So their eyes look cloudy, like, glassy. And they also have these pinkish worm-like parasites–

Lulu: (Grossed out.) Ugh …

Jonny: –Dangling from their eyes.

Lulu: Wow, okay. But you have become utterly obsessed with this dead-looking zombie shark, because … why?

(The theremin exits out.)

Jonny: Because these sharks have a huge secret. They’ve got a secret power, if you will, that seems to let them break the harshest rule of life.

(As we move deeper underwater, new drums enter the scene, crawling along the deepest darkest parts of the ocean.)

Lulu: Hmm.

(A beat.)

Lulu: Alright, well, to find out what rule they are breaking, we gotta start many, many decades ago, when one baby shark–

(Alan sings the “Baby Shark” doo–doo melody in the middle of the background music, just for a second.)

Lulu: (Laughs.) –Is birthed into the frigid waters of the deep sea, where it is so dark–

(Bubbles flutter up towards the surface as we move underwater.)

Lulu: –It can’t see anything.

Songbud Alan: (As a Greenland shark.) Aha! But–who needs to see? I navigate the deep with electricity!

(Electricity charges up!)

Lulu: (Spoken.) That’s right, the baby shark can detect electricity coming from other creatures!

(Zap zap!)

Songbud Alan: Alone I prowl the ocean floor, I eat whatever I can find.

Dead whales and snails and flounder tails. [Crunch crunch!] Delicious! They’re all mine!

It’s nice for me down in the deep, where the pressure makes me hard to reach.

It’s home! It’s where I live and grow.

(Growing sound effects.)

Lulu: (Spoken.) And grow this shark does, scavenging the seafloor like a vulture.

Songbud Alan: Dead whales and snails and flounder tails! [Crunch crunch!]

Lulu: (Spoken.) Decade after decade, until …

Songbud Alan: I’m the size of a giraffe.

Imagine that!

Splish splash!

Imagine that.

(The music plays out.)

Lulu: And one day, this jumbo, death-breathed shark is swimming near the island of Greenland when, well, I’m sorry to say, it gets caught on a fishing line.

(An underwater struggle begins.)

Lulu: And is pulled out of the water.

(Whoosh!)

Lulu: Onto a fisherman’s boat.

(Thump!)

Lulu: And it is shortly after that that a jolly scientist named John Steffensen happens to pass by on another boat.

(Nautical accordion music plays.)

John Steffensen: Hello hello!

Lulu: And first glimpse this gray beast the size of a giraffe glimmering in the sun.

John: I just went, like, “Wow!” Just the size! That's kind of impressive animal. Nearly as big as the boat!

Jonny: And as he leaned in to get a better look …

(Songbud Alan, as the captain, laughs almost menacingly.)

John: The captain, he was laughing at me.

Lulu: Saying, basically, “We Greenlanders don’t really like Greenland sharks, because there’s almost nothing you can do with ‘em.”

John: Everybody know Greenland sharks. They are poisonous!

Lulu: So you can’t really eat ‘em. Can’t even use ‘em as dog food!

John: If you’re out with your team of sled dogs …

(Dogs howl, but then the howling gets weird. These dogs must have had Greenland shark meat. They sound a little sick to their stomachs.)

Lulu: You must never feed raw Greenland shark meat to them, because …

John: They’ll get drunk.

Jonny: Meaning intoxicated on the shark meat. It makes them woozy and confused.

John: And they'll run in 12 or 16 different directions.

Lulu: Okay, that would not be good on a sled.

Jonny: Exactly.

(Another moment of dogs howling in confusion.)

Lulu: So, the question remains …

Jonny: Why try to learn more about this Greenland shark if it tastes horrible and no one likes it?

Lulu: Yeah, why?

Jonny: Well, his–his reason was because he heard this rumor.

John: The rumor is they get very old.

Lulu: How old?

Jonny: Potentially centuries.

(Mystical, dramatic music builds as Lulu speaks, eventually featuring an entire string orchestra.)

Lulu: Legends said they could get two or three–or even four–centuries old, which would be older than the locomotive [A train blows its whistle.] older than entire forests, older than the United States!

That would make the Greenland shark older than any creature with a backbone. Older than whales and elephants or wizened old tortoises! Which, to John, just seemed …

Jonny: Really hard to believe.

Lulu: Because, you know, the end comes for us all–eventually! And for creatures like us, with a backbone–vertebrates–there seems to be a hard limit, a bedtime, for how late we can stay up living.

But if this rumor was true, then this stinky-breathed, cloudy-eyed, parasite-covered, hulk of a Greenland shark was shattering the limit to life.

Jonny: So he decides to do some digging.

(Detective music replaces the orchestra with a horn section, in the vein of the Pink Panther theme song.)

Lulu: Picture him picking up a magnifying glass and putting on a Sherlock Holmes hat!

… I mean, he didn’t actually do that, but, after that day in the boat, he would spend the next few years as a professional Shark Detective.

John: Right? (Chuckles.)

Lulu: John wants to crack the case. He wants to find out if the rumor about the shark’s age is true. And he’s only got one clue to go on, which is that the Greenland shark–

John: –Never stops growing in length.

Lulu: So as they age, they just keep growing and growing and growing … (Lulu fades out.)

(The detective music fades out.)

Lulu: And with that one trusty clue, “Shark Detective” John Steffensen got to work.

Jonny: And he tried multiple methods. So the first attempt–

John: In some fish, you can count “year rings.”

Lulu: Did he just say earrings? Fish with earrings?

(Plucky jazzy music plays.)

Jonny: Sorta. A lot of fish have these things called “ear stones”.

John: … Which is part of the balance organ in the head of the fish.

Jonny: And those ear stones, a bit like trees, will have rings inside them that mark every year.

Lulu: Woah. So, okay. If you found a shark and you took out the ear stone, you could just kind of count the–the rings and find out how old it is?

Jonny: That was the theory, but it didn't work.

(The jazzy music winds down and falls out of tune.)

Lulu: Why?

Jonny: It turns out, Greenland sharks, they don't have them.

Lulu: So cross that off the list. So what's his next thought?

Jonny: X-rays!

(And we’re back! The jazz music picks up where it started.)

Lulu: Ooh.

Jonny: The actual bones themselves can tell you a lot about how old a creature is.

John: I called the local hospital. And kind of asked, “Can I come with a shark and we can try to put it in the x-ray machine?” The boss came on the phone and he said, “Sure, when are you coming?” [He laughs, remembering.] So I went to the hospital right away!

Lulu: Apparently they were so excited to have a shark coming in for an x-ray that–

John: They postponed an old man with a broken arm. He was sitting in the waiting room!

Lulu: Poor dude with his broken arm! (She laughs at just how weird that must have been for the dude.)

Jonny: Yeah!

Lulu: So John goes to the front of the line with his shark. Well, just the backbone of a shark.

Jonny: They fired up the x-ray machine …

(The machine whirrs to life.)

Jonny: Took photos of the backbone …

(Zap!)

Jonny: And that’s when they discovered …

John: It didn't work.

(The music winds down again.)

Jonny: Their bones were too soft.

Lulu: (Clearly disappointed.) Oh …

Jonny: So he tries to use what's known as a CAT scan, which is basically another machine for photographing bones–

(The music whirrs back to life for just one second before winding back down a third time.)

Jonny: –But that doesn't work either.

Lulu: I mean, that's like three strikes, usually you're out. Like, why–why is he so obsessed with this? Why does he want to know the shark’s age so bad?

Jonny: Well, John thinks …

John: For any biological question, there’s an animal somewhere that’d be perfect to answer that question!

(Low, slow music creates a bubble around Lulu as she explains John’s idea.)

Lulu: Huh. Meaning, any question about how life works, like, “Why do we sleep?” or “Why do we die?” or “Do we have to die?”–as long as the question is about biology …

John: There’s an animal somewhere that’d be perfect to answer that question.

Lulu: Do you believe that, Jonny?

Jonny: (Breathing in, thinking.) I’m not sure I do. But it doesn’t really matter what I think, because John was sure!

Lulu: So after trying the ears and trying the bones, he decided the next place he would try was …

Jonny: Eyeballs.

Lulu: Eyeballs. [She laughs a big laugh.] Why?

Jonny: Well, back in the late 1950s, humans were testing lots of big new bombs, which released a lot of a chemical called Carbon-14 into the environment.

(Fwoosh!)

Lulu: Okay.

Jonny: And those chemicals can get trapped …

(Jonny continues to talk as Lulu narrates the shortened version.)

Lulu: Jonny explained that this chemical was absorbed into the bodies of the creatures alive back then … including baby Greenland sharks that were still in their mother’s womb. And it just so happens that eyeballs don’t change much over time.

Jonny: … Making the eye kind of like a time capsule.

Lulu: huh!

Jonny: So if you could find a shark with a lot of Carbon-14 in the very, very middle of its eye, you would pretty much know when it was born!

Lulu: Whoa! Because it would’ve been born not too long after those bombs.

Jonny: Exactly! And, because it would take a lot of meticulous dissection and grueling math, well, John knew just who to rope in.

Kirstine Steffensen: Hi.

Jonny: You’re like sort of his Guinea pig. Is that fair?

Kirstine: Yeah, kind of. (She laughs.)

Jonny: His daughter, Kirstine.

(The music changes tone, bouncing up and down.)

John: My daughter, she needed a project for her high school. So I suggested she would work on this, and she talked to the school master and he said, “Sure.”

Lulu: So he's going to make her figure it out. He's gonna make her do the hard part?

Kirstine: Yeah. (Kirstine laughs.)

Jonny: So her dad handed her a pair of shark eyeballs they had been keeping in the freezer.

Kirstine: I actually have the eye from the first shark in my apartment.

Jonny: What do you mean, you have it? [Chuckles lightly.] Like, where is it?

Kirstine: I have it on the–on the shelf. (She laughs.)

Jonny: You have, like, a jar with an eye?

Kirstine: Yeah. (She laughs.)

Jonny: (Jonny laughs right back.) That's not creepy.

Lulu: So Kirstine took these two frozen eyeballs her dad had given her. They were cold in her hands and they were pretty small.

Kirstine: Just about the size of a golf ball.

Lulu: Meaning they came from sharks that should be on the younger side.

Kirstine: Yeah.

Lulu: She put them on the table and sliced open each eye.

Kirstine: Cut open the eye lens and took out the nucleus of the eye, the very center of the eye.

(Pop goes the eyeball!)

Lulu: And then she sent them off to be analyzed for Carbon-14.

John: This is where it starts getting weird.

(The plucky spaghetti Western music returns.)

Lulu: Weird because the math was saying these smallish sharks …

Jonny: They were at least 200 years old.

Lulu: (Surprised at the sheer number of years.) What?

Lulu: Now, Kirstine had things to do, like graduate from high school, so that is when they brought in another scientist, Julius Neilsen, to head up the study. And he and the team spent years collecting way more sharks.

Jonny: 28 in total.

Lulu: Bigger sharks this time–sharks that had accidentally got caught in fishing nets or had died naturally. They analyzed them even more closely, they ran the calculations again, and finally they came to what they believed was the most accurate scientifically sound estimation of just how old Greenland sharks can get.

(The music speeds up, rushing around, and then freezes just as John shares the age.)

John: 272 to 512 years.

Lulu: Woah, so there could be sharks that are older than half a millennium down there?

(More low, slow music plays.)

John: It was, like, unbelievable!

Jonny: So this obviously is a shocking finding.

(A series of archived news clips play.)

Archival News, Today: … A jaw-dropping story this morning …

Archival News, CBS: … Scientists have discovered some sharks older than the United States …

Archival News, Global News: … For decades, scientists had suspected the Greenland shark was long in the tooth, but never realized they were ancient …

Archival News: … This means the Greenland shark lives longer than any known animal with a backbone. If we come upon a shark birthday party down there …

(The news stories fade out as Lulu returns to narrate what happens next.)

Lulu: This is when Jonny, our journalist, heard about the Greenland shark. He thought back to all those sharks he’d grown up swimming with as a boy and it never occurred to him …

Jonny: … That some of these sharks roaming around in the water had lived centuries and centuries. You know, back to medieval times, there was still this shark [Laughing.] in that same ocean!

Lulu: And when he looked around …

Jonny: It just seemed baffling!

Lulu: No one was talking about how–how the Greenland shark lived so long, how it seemed to break this sacred limit of life that applied to every other vertebrate on the planet!

(The music pauses.)

Lulu: So, when we come back, Jonny’s gonna use his powers of journalism–

(Fwoo fwoo!)

Lulu: –To find out the Greenland shark’s trick for longevity.

(Lulu takes a breath and the sound of something diving from high in the sky plays.)

Lulu: Catch ya after just a few more seconds of your life burn away.

(A clock ticks as the ad break begins!)

Lulu: Just kidding! You’re young. You’re fine. See you in a sec.

Lulu: (Singing the theme of the movie Jaws over a few waves) Terrestrials is back, and we are gettin’ sharky with Jonny!

(Funky music picks up.)

Jonny: Hey!

Lulu: So Jonny was on a quest to figure out how the Greenland shark shatters the limit to life and outlives all other vertebrates on the planet, and …

Jonny: I did speak to a guy.

Steven Austad: Okay. My name is Steven Austad.

Jonny: He’s a biologist at the University of Alabama, Birmingham.

Lulu: And while lots of other scientists all over the planet are racing to look at the Greenland shark’s blood or heart tissue to see if it has any secret chemical tricks that allow for its longevity, Steve looks more broadly at this group of creatures across the kingdom that are somehow able to live–

Jonny: –Way longer than everybody else.

(The music changes tone, taking us out to outer space. Stars twinkle around as Jonny and Steven introduce the oldest animals in our known universe.)

Lulu: Like the geezers of the animal–like, the super old ones?

Jonny: Exactly. The outliers–who happen to include …

Steven: Bats.

Jonny: Clams.

Steven: Mussels.

Jonny: Tubeworms.

Steven: Tortoises.

Jonny: And he tries to figure out how they do it, and if there are any common strategies.

Lulu: Okay. How does he think the Greenland shark does it?

Steven: Okay. There are three things.

Lulu: Alright. I'm taking notes. (Lulu writes as Jonny talks.)

Jonny: So number one, be big and gross.

Lulu: (Laughs.) Okay, why does that help you live longer?

Jonny: So, big, because just generally big creatures don't get eaten up as much.

Lulu: There's less things that can kill you, basically.

Jonny: (Agreeing.) Less things that can kill you. You're more intimidating to other animals.

Steven: Yeah, if you're the Greenland shark, then you probably don't have any predators except maybe whales.

Lulu: Okay.

Jonny: And gross because, well, if you're gross, then both creatures below and humans themselves won't eat you because you're disgusting.

Lulu: That's funny. It's like the–[Laughs.] it's, like, that yucky–the toxic meat, the yucky worm-like thing in the eye, all that–it's almost–all the stuff we were ridiculing about–making fun of it–is almost like a shield from death?

Jonny: Yeah, in a way.

Lulu: Okay. Number one, be big and gross. What is number two?

Jonny: Number two, be slow.

Steven: And the fastest speed that they've been recorded to swim at, uh, is slower than an 80 year-old walks.

Lulu: No, no. Like a–like a sweet old man slowly shuffling across the street? That’s how slow they move underwater?

Steven: Yeah! [Both laugh lightly.] A healthy 80 year-old walks about one meter per second, and a Greenland shark’s top speed that's ever been measured is about two thirds of that.

Jonny: Wow.

Jonny: And that’s why they are mostly scavengers. They’ll eat dead fish! And dead seals and dead–

Steven: –Reindeer and polar bears and–

Lulu: Reindeer?!

Steven: Yeah.

(A beat.)

Songbud Alan and Lulu: (Singing.) Let’s take a break to consider that a shark can eat a reindeer! Let’s take a break to consider Santa’s fleet in a shark belly. Jingle jingle–chomp!

(Back to the interview.)

Lulu: (Still reeling.) In their shark stomach?!

Steven: Yeah. Probably they died and fell in the ocean.

Lulu: Okay.

Jonny: They didn't, like, chase after them.

Lulu: Oh, okay.

Lulu: But how does being slow actually help it live longer?

Jonny: Well this is where things get really cool. It’s not just that it’s moving slowly. Its heart is beating slowly.

(A heartbeat: Thump-thump, PAUSE, thump-thump.)

Jonny: Its belly is digesting super slowly.

(Gurgling.)

Jonny: Which means, first of all, it doesn’t need to eat as much to power its body.

Steven: If there's a food shortage, you could probably go for years without eating. So I think …

Jonny: Years? Really, years?

Steven: They–they figure they can eat about one medium-sized seal a year.

Jonny: Oh wow.

Jonny: Which helps them cheat death, Because they can survive stretches of famine, or food shortages, that would knock out most other creatures.

Lulu: Woah.

Jonny: Yeah! And, perhaps even more important, it turns out, the faster your body goes …

(The music creates a sort of heartbeat: Thump-thump, thump-thump, thump-thump, no breaks.)

Jonny: Eating, moving, getting stressed …

(The heartbeat music thump-thumps even faster.)

Jonny: The faster these not-so-great chemicals are released into your body …

Steven: Free radicals that damage everything they touch.

Jonny: Heart tissue, bone tissue, brain cells …

(A beat without music.)

Jonny: But! If you live life in slo-mo–

(The heartbeat slows down again: Thump-thump, PAUSE, thump-thump.)

Jonny: –Like the Greenland shark, then those chemicals don't get released as fast!

Lulu: Weird. So the slower your body runs, the slower it wears down?

Steven: Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Lulu: Wow! Okay. So be–be big and gross and real slow–slow it down.

Jonny: Yup. And the third thing is, be lonely.

(Quiet music, long droning notes, play on a deep string instrument.)

Jonny: They live deep in the ocean, away from other creatures and–

(A storm brews.)

Jonny: –Storms.

(Thunder and electricity charges up.)

Steven: –Or a lightning strike.

(Whoosh!)

Jonny: –Or motorboats with sharp propellers zipping by.

(A motorboat revs as it speeds past overhead.)

Jonny: So they’re less likely to get killed by a freak accident.

Lulu: Oh.

Jonny: And also … !

(A meandering drum line adds in to the music.)

Steven: They don't live in huge social groups.

Jonny: They don’t come together to interact much, but they’re less likely to catch viruses or diseases from one another.

Lulu: Hmm.

Songbud Alan: (Singing.) Alone I prowl on the ocean floor.

Lulu: So part of their sort of troll-like living deep in that lonely darkness, like, that's, that's kind of protecting them, too?

(The music changes direction. The percussion quiets as a soft flute melody plays underwater, shimmering through the blue.)

Jonny: Yeah. Being lonely and solitary actually decreases their chances of being hurt by all these different dangers in the world.

Lulu: There's something, like, a little sad to me about this–this bargain. Like, to live longer, you kind of have to opt out of the stuff of living, like, be away from adventure, be away from other creatures like you. You opt out a lot of …

Steven: You have a really boring life.

Lulu: Yeah. Like, opt out of life kinda …

Steven: Well, I’ve been thinking about my clams.

Lulu: Those old clams that Steve studies.

Steven: There are clams that live 500 years at the bottom of the sea, opening their shell occasionally.

(Bubbles burst towards the surface of the water all around you.)

Steven: You know, one of my clams, if I calculated, was born 65 years before Shakespeare was born.

Lulu: Woah!

Steven: And it’s just been sitting there. I think, what a dull existence. (They both laugh quietly, contemplating.)

Lulu: Haha. Yeah, it does get kinda boring.

Jonny: I see your point, Lulu, but we just know so little about the true lives of these sharks.

Lulu: Hmm.

Jonny: Maybe it’s kind of a party down there. Maybe it’s an adventure. [Lulu laughs.]Maybe they are doing things we haven’t even discovered yet. For instance, scientists only recently figured out that maybe these sharks can catch live prey.

Lulu: How?

Jonny: Using their electricity perception!

(The sharks charge up!)

Lulu: Oh.

Jonny: And another recent study suggests that Greenland sharks don’t even start to have babies until they're over 100 years old!

Lulu: Woah.

Jonny: Meaning they essentially get a hundred years to stay a kid.

Lulu: Like they’re little–they’re little Peter Pans down there? Forever young!

Jonny: Little Peter Pans, yep! Not forever, but for … long. Yes.

(Music plays.)

Lulu: (Laughing at Jonny’s technicality.) Alright. Well, touchée, Jonny, thank you for reminding us to keep our minds open! Especially in the dark.

Jonny: You are most welcome, Lulu.

Songbud Alan and Mike Kinsella: (Singing.) In the deep cold ocean we swim alone.

A little misunderstood, but we’re at home.

Yeah, we may seem gross

Oh-so-gross

On the deep, dark, and cold ocean floor

But what makes you think that you know?

(The instrumentation picks up.)

(Slowly.) We take it slow

You never tried to understand us

Seems like you can’t stand us

Steer clear

Don’t come near us

You fear us!

You never really tried to get to know

But that’s fine, we’re loving life down below.

(Spoken.) Oh, and by the way–

(Singing.) We’ll never understand

Why you freaky finless weirdos

Went and named us after land.

Lulu: (Spoken in a Valley Girl voice.) And we’re literally aquatic!

Songbud Alan and Mike Kinsella: (Spoken.) Weirdos!

(Slowly.) We take it slow,

We take it slow!

You never tried to understand us.

(The song ends.)

Lulu: Alan Goffin–[hehe fin]–ski, with special guest Mike Kinsella from the bands american Football and Owen! And that’s it. Terrestrials is over and there’s nothing else cool about to …

(Suddenly, out of nowhere, trumpets … well, uh, trumpet! It’s The Badgers!)

Lulu: (Whispered.) What's that?

Badger #1: Excuse me, I have a question.

Badger #2: Me too.

Badger #3: Me three.

Badger #4: Me four.

Lulu: (Whispered, but somehow loudly.) The Badgers.

(The Badgers theme song plays underneath the questions.)

Lulu: Listeners with badgering questions for the expert. Are you ready?

John: Yes indeed!

Cade: Hi, I’m Cade. I’m five years old. Is it true that when a mama shark is pregnant, her baby will sometimes eat each other in the womb?

Lulu: Oh my gosh, I’ve always wondered that. Is that true that baby sharks’ll eat each other inside the mommy’s belly?

John: That’s true.

Lulu: That’s true?!

John: Well, some sharks do it.

Lulu: Sand tiger sharks have definitely been found to do it. They will eat their brothers and sisters inside their mom’s belly!

John: But we know very little about the Greenland sharks with–with the young ones.

(Chomp!)

Dr. Yvonne Tsu: I’m Dr. Yvonne Tsu,and I’m 35 years old. My question is: Why are they so ugly and did their ugliness help them survive?

John: I don’t know if they're ugly. [Laughs.] And–and–no–but no, it won’t help them survive, because if you are living down 2000 meters, it’s pitch black anyway. [Lulu laughs.] So nope, nope, it has nothing to do with that. They look like they look, and that’s it.

Chris: Hi, I’m Chris, and I’m 77 years old. And my question is: Since they are so slow, would it actually be fine to swim with them?

John: Well, I–I would never do it. [Laughs.] That’s for sure! They have, like, two sets of teeth: In the bottom they–they have, like, the cutting teeth, like a razor blade, whereas in the upper part it’s just spikes coming down.

(The Badgers theme music fades out and makes way for the swirling cloudiness of the credits music.)

Lulu: (Wincing.) Ooh!

John: So I would not go in the water with them, nope. Never.

Lulu: Okay, noted. I’m gonna leave it there with the Greenland shark and its Swiss Army Knife of teeth and not tell you that part of the reason their skin is so poisonous is because there is urea in it, A.K.A. the ingredient in urine, A.K.A. pee–there is pee in their skin. I’m not gonna tell you that, ‘cause I’m nice.

Terrestrials was created by me, Lulu Miller, with WNYC Studios. This episode was produced by Brenna Farrel, and Mira Burt-Wintonick, with help from Alan Goffinski, Ana González, Tanya Chawla, Sarah Sandbach, Valentina Powers, and Joe Plourde. Fact-checking by Natalie Middleton.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by The Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation, and the John Templeton Foundation.

Thank youuu!

Big special thanks this episode to Dr. Julius Neilsen, he has done a ton of incredible work on the Greenland shark and was a huge help on this episode; also to Jan Hannemeier; Holly Shields; Grace and Charlotte Beckerman–and to you, for listening!

Catch you in a couple spins of this watery ol’ planet of ours.

Woo woo woo woo woo!

(Whispered.) Bye.

(The credits music plays out.)

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Alan Goffinski (he/him), is an arts administrator, songwriter, and producer from Charlottesville VA. He is the former Executive Director of The Bridge Progressive Arts Initiative and the Charlottesville Mural Project—two city-wide organizations that utilize art and culture as a way for people to better understand themselves, each other, and the world around them. He is also a founding member of the Indianapolis-based whimsical performing arts collective Know No Stranger which has been described as “Sesame Street but for adults... but also for kids.” He produced the experimental music radio program Telemetry in partnership with the University of Virginia. Early in his career, Alan spent years making music in a nationally touring indie-punk band (signed to Victory Records) prior to becoming a social worker specializing in early childhood development. He began making kid’s music under the moniker Little Skunks as a fun way to be a part of the day-to-day lives of his nieces and nephew.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Ana is an audio producer and host who came to WNYC in 2021 to work on Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials. Before that, she produced and hosted Mosaic, a show about immigration experiences from Rhode Island Public Radio. In a former life, she played jazz bass and thinks about everything in terms of rhythm, conversation, and harmony.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Mira Burt-Wintonick (she/her) -- For the past 20 years, Mira’s been creating, story editing and sound designing various shows. Her work often explores grief and complex emotional landscapes (Love Me, Sorry About The Kid, Welcome to Paradise) but she’s also made some absurd comedy podcasts (WireTap, PenPals). She recently directed Wintopia, a feature documentary film about her late filmmaking father, Peter Wintonick, and his search for Utopia.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.body
The honeybee. The ever-important pollinator for our plants is disappearing. Some call it the silence of the bees, others call it colony collapse disorder. Dr. Sammy Ramsey, our official bug correspondent, wondered, could it be due to parasites? And if so, how do we catch all of them? This question takes Dr. Sammy to the heart of a jungle in Bangladesh to look for overlooked honeybees impervious to parasites. The only problem? He can't find them. With help from a local guide named Babulall, he learns how the most overlooked bees could possibly save all the honey bees in the world. Plus, they have some killer dance moves.

Big special thanks this episode to Babulall Munda and Rubaiyat Mansur Mowgli, both of whom, by the way, will be credited on any scientific papers that come out of the work they did with Dr. Sammy in Bangladesh.

Check out the making of this episode! Photos by Shin Arunrugstichai.

Terrestrials was created by Lulu Miller with WNYC Studios. This episode was produced by Alan Goffinski, Mira Burt-Wintonick, Joe Plourde and Lulu Miller, with help from Sammy Ramsey, Rico Hernandez, Amanda Gann, Madison Sankovitz, Chris Borke, and Shin Arunrugstichai.

​​The Terrestrials team also includes Ana González, Tanya Chawla, Sarah Sandbach, and Valentina Powers, with fact-checking by Diane Kelly. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Transcription by Caleb Codding.

Our advisors are Ana Luz Porzecanski, Andy J. Pizza, Anil Lewis, Dominique Shabazz, Liza Demby, Princess Daazhraii Johnson and Tara Welty.

Learn more about storytellers, listen to music, and dig deeper into the stories you hear on Terrestrials with activities you can do at home or in the classroom on our website, Terrestrialspodcast.org.

Badger us on social media: @radiolab and #TerrestrialsPodcast or by emailing us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Visit the Terrestrials website to learn more about the show, meet our team, listen to the songs and discover fun activities, drawing prompts, music how-tos and games that educators, parents and families might enjoy together.

If you’d like to “badger” a future expert, suggest story ideas or feedback, email us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Listen to just the songs from Terrestrials.

Sign up for Radiolab’s newsletter! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up here.

Radiolab for Kids and Terrestrials are supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, X and Facebook @radiolab.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation.

# included[].attributes.headers.brand.logo-image.alt-text
Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

# included[].attributes.headers.links[].title
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

# included[].attributes.show-tease
A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.show-title
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

# included[].attributes.series[].about.body
Terrestrials is a show for people of all ages that explores the strangeness that exists right here on Earth. In each episode, host Lulu Miller (co-host of Radiolab) will introduce you to a creature or earthly phenomenon that will defy your expectations of how nature is supposed to work. Along the way, you'll encounter a chorus of experts, including scientists, surfers, hip hop artists and…a "Songbud" named Alan (indie punk musician Alan Goffinski) who creates original songs for key moments of confusion, discovery or awe. New episodes drop Thursdays. Listen in with your whole family. Or all alone.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundation.

LISTEN TO TERRESTRIALS  | SUPPORT TERRESTRIALS | TERRESTRIALS WANTS YOUR FEEDBACK! | PRESS INQUIRIES  | BECOME A SPONSOR | CONTACT US

# included[].attributes.series[].tease
A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.series[].logo-image.alt-text
Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

# included[].attributes.tease
The honeybee. The ever-important pollinator for our plants is disappearing. Some call it the silence of the bees, others call it colony collapse disorder. Dr. Sammy Ramsey, our offici...

# included[].attributes.title
The Crystal Ball: Giant Honeybees Who Predict the Future

# included[].attributes.transcript
Lulu Miller: Three, two, one.

(Background music winds up.)

Sammy Ramsey: Imagine your eyeballs grow lots of hair.

(Hairs grow, one by one: Zip! Zwip!)

Sammy: And you suddenly get really good at math.

(Computers beep and blip as they calculate lots of math really, really fast.)

Sammy: Trigonometry in particular.

Lulu: (Explaining.) It's the study of angles, triangles, and stuff.

Sammy: But instead of showing off that math with a pen and paper …

(The computer sounds fade out.)

Lulu: … You show it off–

Sammy: –By dancing!

(Funky dance music plays as Sammy sings and Lulu chuckles gently.)

Sammy: You shake it to the left–ayy!–you shake it to the right–ayy!–then you waggle and point your body in the perfect angle to show your siblings how to find … flowers!

(The music changes, slow and misty and mysterious like a dream.)

Lulu: You have become …

Sammy: A honey bee.

Lulu: But not just any honey bee!

Sammy: One of the overlooked honey bees. [Echoing dramatic, suspenseful horn flares as they play underneath.] Dun, dun, dun!

(Both laugh.)

Lulu: Now is when I make you sing the theme song.

Sammy: Hmm!

(The Terrestrials theme song starts to play, loud and proud!)

Songbud Alan Goffinski: Terrestrials, Terrestrials! We are not the worst, we're the …

Sammy: (Chuckling quietly as he finishes the song.) … Bestrials.

Lulu: (Laughingly, as Sammy cracks up.) Yeah!

(A beat.)

Lulu: Terrestrials is a show where we uncover the strangeness waiting right here on earth. I am your host, Lulu Miller, joined, as always, by my songbud …

Songbud Alan: Hey hey!

Lulu: (Laughing.) Alan!

Songbud Alan: Buzzing with excitement!

Lulu: This season we are looking at creatures that are usually …

Songbud Alan and Lulu: (Together.) Overlooked! [A beat.] Shh!

Lulu: And today's very special guest is a voice you might recognize from past Terrestrials. That's right. Bug guy Sammy Ramsey has joined the Terrestrials team as our official Bug Correspondent!

(Bugs skitter by as a piano key twinkles, almost like a musical wink.)

Lulu: Hi, Sammy!

Sammy: Good to be back.

(Bees buzz as magical music envelops Lulu and Sammy.)

Lulu: So, the story Sammy has brought us today is about overlooked honey bees. Picture a bunch of bees who you might not have seen before. Some of them are huge, and some of them are tiny, and some of them are red, and some of them are shiny.

Sammy: And when their wings are moving, all of those colors seem to shift and shimmer around.

(A glimmer as you imagine the bees moving.)

Lulu: But this story is also about a superhero, of sorts, who I’m gonna call …

(The bee music gives way to a superhero theme song.)

Songbud Alan: (Echoing.) “Man Who Notices Overlooked Things!”

Lulu: Underneath his cape and tights is …

(A trumpet blares a fanfare to signal the entrance of a very important, very special superhero.)

Lulu: … Sammy. It’s Sammy.

Lulu: (Whispers, as an aside.) Sammy, are you okay with me calling you “Man Who Notices Overlooked Things”?

Sammy: Um, yes?

(Both laugh.)

Lulu: He’s a good sport.

(Fwip!)

Lulu: And I’m calling him “Man Who Notices Overlooked Things”  because …

Sammy: My eye is drawn to things that people don't pay a lot of attention to.

(Quick, soft piano music plays as Lulu explains Sammy’s career.)

Lulu: In his science–his life, really–he’s learned again and again that when you zero in on the things no one’s paying attention to …

Sammy: … You find the discoveries.

Lulu: Just watch!

(Bees buzz to signal that we are going back in time.)

Lulu: The year is 2006. And farmers all over the U.S. are opening their beehives to find them [A beat as the buzzing bees disappear.] empty.

Sammy: It's weird to not hear that characteristic bzz.

(A didgeridoo emulates Sammy as he mimics the bee’s sound.)

Sammy: Some folks have referred to it as the “Silence of the Bees.”

Lulu: Oof!

(A quiet moment.)

Lulu: Others referred to it as Colony Collapse Disorder, and it was really scary, because honey bees, of course, are …

Sammy: Pollinators!

(Hopeful, uptempo music.)

Lulu: Which means, as they drink from flowers, they spread pollen, which triggers plants to grow everything from peaches to pumpkins to cabbages to coffee to nuts and avocado and … !

(The music winds down as Lulu’s list grows longer and longer.)

Sammy: Ugh. Imagine a life with no ice cream!

Lulu: They do not pollinate cows, Sammy!

Sammy: They pollinate the food that we feed to the cows.

Lulu: Ooh!

Sammy: So a bunch of bees just disappearing is really frightening.

(Suspenseful music kicks in.)

Lulu: And this is where–

Songbud Alan: “Man Who Notices Overlooked Things”!

Lulu: –Arrives on the scene, because a few years into the “Silence of the Bees,” Sammy joins the ranks of scientists trying to figure out why the bees are disappearing.

Sammy: Is it a new disease? Is it because of pesticides? Maybe it's the cell phones!

(A cell phone rings, and then–ZAP!–electrifies the air around it.)

Lulu: (Whispered.) It was not the cell phones.

Sammy: But some people wondered, could it be due to this parasite called [Dramatically, to make it sound ominous.] Varroa destructor?

(Tchk tchk! The mites skitter and scatter around as Sammy and Lulu describe them.)

Lulu: What is this parasite? What does it look like?

Sammy: Like a weird tiny little mite. Then people thought it was feeding on the bees’ blood.

(The music fades out in time for another fanfare.)

Lulu: But–

Songbud Alan: (Over a trumpet.) “Man Who Notices Overlooked Things”!

Lulu: –Just wasn’t so sure. So he started looking closely at the stuff no one wanted to look at.

Sammy: The mite’s poop.

(A mite toot.)

Lulu: (Giggles.) And he noticed …

Sammy: It had these strange crystals.

Lulu: Ooh!

(Menacing, dark music, echoes as if in a big empty space.)

Lulu: And as he gazed deeper into those crystals, he realized the mites were feeding on the bees’ livers–

(Nom nom nom! The mites chow down. As they do, hip music kicks in.)

Lulu: (Keeping up a very fast pace.) –And so he and his sneaky team of scientists started concocting a potion they can feed it to the Varroa destructors that would make it so they can’t have babies, which means–[Lulu pauses to take a breath.]–no new adult Varroa destructors to attack the bees!

(Sammy’s “dun dun dun!” from before, complete with sound effects, returns, and the music fades out.)

Lulu: Woohoo! So that’s it? Our bees are safe now, and I can enjoy my coffee and ice cream forevermore in peace?

Sammy: (Laughing woefully.) I wish! Um, but, sadly, Varroa is not the only threat to bees.

Lulu: Oh.

(Light, open music puffs along.)

Sammy: There are a bunch of other parasites out there.

Lulu: So how do you fight those?

Sammy: Well, this brings us to the overlooked honey bees.

(Buzzing!)

Lulu: Sammy explained that all of the honey bees that exist in North America …

Sammy: … Are all one species: Apis Mellifera.

Lulu: And so much of the attention–by North American scientists, anyway–the attempts to save them, the research, has been focused on those black and yellow buzzers you know and love (or don’t love).

(A bee buzzes right at Lulu.)

Lulu: Ah! Bee!

(The bee leaves.)

Lulu: But Sammy, being–

Songbud Alan: (Over a trumpet.) “Man Who Notices Overlooked Things”!

Lulu: –He thought …

Sammy: “What if I looked at the other species of honey bees?”

(A colorful sparkle.)

Lulu: Those little red ones, and giant furry ones, and shiny black ones …

Sammy: All of them happen to live clustered in one region of the world: Southeast Asia.

Lulu: Huh, so, but … Why? Why look at them to keep our bees safe?

(Music deepens, over jungle sounds.)

Sammy: Because they have lived in forests in Thailand and India and Bangladesh for millions of years.

Lulu: Way longer than our little bees have been around!

Sammy: And over those millions of years, all kinds of parasites have popped up and attacked them.

(Wormy sounds! The roots of trees dig into the ground.)

Sammy: Meaning these overlooked bees? Their bodies are like crystal balls.

Lulu: Because they show what parasites could come attack our honey bees in the future. And if scientists can get a head start on studying those potential enemies, those parasites–well, if they do ever come to the U.S., we’ll be much better prepared to fight them off.

(The music slows down, calming over a consistent beat.)

Sammy: Bingo.

Lulu: Wow, okay! And, as I understand, you are headed out in just a few days to head deep into the jungle to try to catch some of these overlooked bees?

(Sammy laughs in response.)

Lulu: Is that right?

Sammy: So I’m leaving in seven days.

Lulu: Okay. Where are you going?

Sammy: The heart of the jungle of Bangladesh. And we’ll be staying on a houseboat, so we can go deep into the little rivers of the jungle to find some hives.

Lulu: Now, looking for, like, a hive in the wild sounds really hard–like, maybe even harder than a needle in a haystack. [Sammy chuckles heartily.] How do you find a wild beehive?

Sammy: Every single honey bee species needs to visit flowers.

(Gentle, contemplative music.)

Lulu: Hmm.

(Zhoop! A bee buzzes by.)

Sammy: And so we're going to grab bees at flowers. And then we attach a radio tracker like a little belt around their waist.

Lulu: (Laughing out loud.) Like a tiny, teensy little bee belt!

(A bee buzzes.)

Sammy: Teeny, teeny, tiny little bee belt with a little beacon that'll actually connect to our cell phones and show us on a map where they land.

(A tracking device that is actually Alan beeps.)

Lulu: Which is their hive?

Sammy: Correct.

Lulu: Wow. Go technology!

Sammy: I agree!

(Lo-fi music returns.)

Lulu: As you're getting ready for the trip, anything you are nervous about that might be lying in wait? Any snakes?

Sammy: Uh, there–there are snakes. And Bengal tigers!

(Lulu gasps.)

Sammy: They are huge.

Lulu: Woah!

Sammy: They can eat a person. So, um, if you don't hear anything back from me by the end of February–

Lulu: (Laughing deeply, but nervously.) Oh, Sammy, stop! Stop!

Sammy: –Please send a search party for me. Can you do that?

Lulu: Okay, I promise, but I don't know.

Lulu: And with that, we say goodbye to our dear, brave friend Sammy.

(Sammy laughs.)

Lulu: Good luck!

Sammy: Thank you!

Lulu: Terrestrials (and hopefully Sammy!) will be back in a moment.

(The break.)

(Buzzing. Then, music and jungle sounds mix together to create a bed of sound.)

Lulu: Terrestrials is back.

(A zipper unzips.)

Sammy: I’ve got a bright green mosquito net. I can hear all the sounds of crickets chirping.

(Water sloshes.)

Lulu: And we are on a houseboat, deep in the jungle of Bangladesh, with Sammy.

Sammy: So at night things get pretty quiet. You can hear fish moving around, jumping out of the water.

(Fish jump, water drip-drops: plink, plink, plink.)

Lulu: It’s his first night.

Sammy: Geckos here and there.

Lulu: Tomorrow, he and his team will head deep into the jungle to search for the overlooked honey bees that might hold the key to keeping our bees safe. But for now?

Sammy: I can let the sound of the waves and water just kinda rock me to sleep.

(The sound of the water washes over everything else, lulling Sammy to sleep.)

Lulu: The next morning …

Sammy: (Excitedly.) Let’s do this! Woo woo! You ready, team?

Lulu: The team assembles.

Sammy: Are you psyched?

Team Member: (Over other scientists cheering.) We’re ready! We’re psyched!

Lulu: There’s Babulall–

Sammy: (Singing excitedly, in a high pitch, in harmony with another scientist.) Babulall!

Lulu: –The jungle expert who grew up in these parts.

(Babulall speaks to the tape in Mundari.)

Lulu: Mowgli, the translator.

Mowgli: Toae / babu.

Lulu: And with radio trackers and binoculars, there’s Madison, Shin, Chris, Rico, and Amanda.

Team Member: Yeah!

Team Member: Lots of us buzzing around.

(Teammates clap and laugh as the jungle buzzes around them.)

Lulu: And the plan, as–

Songbud Alan: (As a trumpet blares.) “Man Who Notices Overlooked Things”!

Lulu: –Has designed it, is to scan the river banks from a little speedboat.

Sammy: When we’re in this speedboat, we’ve been looking from the outside of the forest in, trying to see if we can find blooming flowers.

(Motorboat sounds continue as both Sammy, in the boat, and Lulu, in the studio, keep narrating what happened next.)

Lulu: The bright orange and white star-shaped flowers of mangrove trees–which will lure the bees so Sammy can snag ‘em, pop the fancy radio gear on, and follow them to the hives.

(A beat.)

Lulu: So they look.

Sammy: Hmm.

Lulu: And they look.

(More motorboat sounds.)

Sammy: Hmm.

Lulu: And they see …

(Team members call out what they see: “Otters!” “Wild boar!” “Crabs!”. The motorboat sounds fade out.)

Lulu: But, uh, no flowers.

Sammy: (Drawing the word out, as if embarrassed.) Yeah.

Lulu: And after two days of seeing no white and orange blossoms in the thick green …

Sammy: Well …

Lulu: … Sammy was starting to accept …

(A beat.)

Sammy: See we, um … [Coughing awkwardly.] We got there a little too early.

Lulu: Wait, what do you mean?

Sammy: The flowers weren't blooming yet, Lulu. They just …

Lulu: Oh, Sammy!

Sammy: I messed up big.

(Slow music and sound effects, bugs in the night, begin together.)

Lulu: That night, on the houseboat, “Man Who Notices Overlooked Things” curled up under his mosquito net.

Sammy: (Sighing.) I thought to myself, “Oh, Sammy, you blew it, buddy. You blew it.”

Lulu: He thought about all the people who had believed in him, invested money in him.

Sammy: That's the worst part. It just makes me feel sad and burdensome.

Lulu: And he was realizing …

Sammy: Maybe it’s time to just cut our losses and go back early.

(A wind chime twinkles as a person whistles a good morning tune.)

Lulu: But the next morning, he had an idea. If they couldn’t find flowers to lure the bees …

Sammy: What if we made flowers to lure the bees?

Lulu: So they got to work making a smoothie they hoped would smell like a mangrove flower’s nectar.

Sammy: Crushing up a bunch of fruit, and adding in some honey …

Lulu: Crucial question: [Unbelieving.] Do bees eat honey?

Sammy: Bees love to eat honey. They're very attracted to it.

Lulu: (Shocked.) They do?!

Sammy: They do!

Lulu: What!? Wait, is that analogous to eating your own earwax?

Sammy: No!

Lulu: Or spit?

Sammy: No. So it's not something that their body produces.

Lulu: (Blown away.) It isn't?!

Sammy: No.

Songbud Alan: (Over a newsflash sound, interrupting the flow, in an old-timey voice.) We interrupt this programming to bring you a pressing “What Is Honey?” digression.

Lulu: So honey doesn't come out of bees?

Sammy: No, it doesn't come out of bees!

Lulu: (Almost yelling.) What is honey?

Sammy: A lot of people seem to think this–a lot of people call it bee vomit.

Lulu: Yeah! [Hitting the verbal brakes.] Wait, wait, wait. Alan, did you know that honey was not secreted by bees?

Songbud Alan: I kind of always thought it was like bee vomit. But is it just food gathered from flowers?

Lulu: (Realizing.) Ahh! Okay.

Sammy: Correct. So they fly to a flower, and the flower has nectar in it.

Lulu: It's like juice.

Sammy: Mhm. They'll suck up this nectar and they put it in something–in this little sack in their stomach.

Lulu: Like a little backpack inside the tummy?

Sammy: Yeah. So then they fly it back to the colony.

Lulu: Okay.

(Dark witchy music begins.)

Sammy: And they empty the backpack full of nectar into the comb.

(Fwoo! The “backpack” empties out as wings pick up the pace.)

Sammy: And they'll fan their wings.

(Fwoo! Fwoo!)

Lulu: Hah! Hah! Really?

Sammy: Yeah, they create this draft, [Fwoo!] and it causes a lot of the water to actually evaporate out of the nectar. [Fwoo!]

(A bee cackles as if a witch.)

Lulu: What a witchy little ritual!

(A song begins.)

Bee Witches: We dance and fan, dance and fan…

Around a cauldron of nectar as fast as we can! [“Hehehehehe!”]

Witches: Dance and fan, dance and fan!

Turning juice into honey with the wave of our hands. [Whoosh!]

(The song pauses for an interjection from Sammy.)

Sammy: Yeah!

(And the song is back!)

Bee Witch Chorus: (Spoken, an aside.) Well, technically with our wings.

Witches: High five, hive! Buzz buzz buzz! Ha ha ha ha!

(And it’s gone again.)

Sammy: That's how you get your honey.

Lulu: I truly did not know that until this moment. (Sammy laughs.)

Songbud Alan: (Over the newsflash sound, marking the end of the tangent.) That concludes our “What Is Honey?” digression report.

Lulu: Back to your story. So you're on the ground–

Sammy: Mhm.

Lulu: –Trying to set traps and bait bees with honey.

Sammy: Mhm.

Lulu: And is that working?

Sammy: No.

Lulu: You weren't even … ?

(Buzz buzz–deceptively, an influx of buzzing sounds, flies, enter in.)

Sammy: We got a bunch of flies. [Lulu chuckles.] We got fruit flies.

Lulu: (Laughing.) I'm sorry. I don’t mean to laugh at your misfortune.

Sammy: (Pretending to be upset.) How dare you, Lulu?!

(Jazzy music picks up.)

Lulu: Okay, okay. So you're making your potion, not working, getting covered in flies.

Sammy: Yep.

Lulu: And no bees? Not seeing any bees.

(A breath for a jazzy sax moment.)

Lulu: Even if flies hadn't been covering his eyes–

Songbud Alan: (No horn this time.) “Man Who Notices Overlooked Things”!

Lulu: –Wasn’t sure where to look next. He was out of ideas for what pathway or technique to explore.

Sammy: I think this one’s over for you, buddy.

Lulu: And it was in that moment, when Sammy finally admitted he didn’t have the answer inside his head, that he could finally see where it might be.

(The jazzy music comes to a halt.)

(Babulall’s voice returns.)

Lulu: Babulall, the jungle expert.

(Bababal speaks.)

Sammy: Babulall was kind of the leader of this four-man team that was helping us out.

Lulu: He was a local, from the Munda community.

Sammy: They are this really cool tribe that’s been living in the jungle for hundreds of years and they just seem to know everything about the area.

Lulu: Huh!

Sammy: Many of them make their living fishing and collecting honey from the giant honey bees. (Lulu grunts, impressed.)

(Gentle acoustic music.)

Lulu: The most giant honey bee on the planet, in fact, and one of the most dangerous animals in Asia, because of how they work together to swarm predators with their giant stingers. It’s a species called Apis Dorsata that Babulall hadn’t overlooked at all.

Mowgli: You are ready to catch some Dorsata?

Sammy: We are, thank you.

(The boat creaks underfoot as the two talk.)

Mowgli: We will get some, no problem!

Lulu: Now Babulall didn’t have any radio trackers or tiny bee belts, but he had something arguably even better: What is sometimes called “traditional ecological knowledge,” this deep understanding of creatures and plants that comes from living alongside them and watching them for generations. Now, knowledge like this has a history of itself being overlooked by Western scientists or dismissed as unscientific. But Sammy? Well, he was excited to learn from Babulall. It was part of why he had invited him to be part of the scientific team to begin with.

Sammy: He just had this huge smile.

(Babulall speaks, a smile in his voice.)

Sammy: Super confident.

Lulu: Okay! So how is he–how is he gonna find them?

Sammy: He said, “You just have to watch the bees.”

(Babulall speaks.)

Sammy: And I said, “We would love to watch the bees, but none have shown up for us.”

Lulu: Mhm.

Sammy: He said, “That's because they don't fly through the forest. It's a much better idea to fly above the trees.”

Lulu: So they're up above the canopy?

Sammy: Exactly. How am I going to get up there?

(The music ends.)

Lulu: Yeah.

(As Sammy speaks, new music enters: curious, airy, light.)

Sammy: Well, Babulall just started [Crunch! Snap!] climbing a mangrove tree.

(Babulall speaks as he climbs.)

Sammy: And I gotta say, he got to the top pretty quick!

Babulall: Ooh!

Sammy: Like, it was just …

(Lulu laughs a tiny laugh as we listen to the tape for Sammy’s trip.)

Sammy: There was no–it didn't seem like he needed to, like, psych himself up for it. If I needed to climb a tree, I just need y'all to know it's going to be a minute.

(Crunch!)

Lulu: And then Babulall just watched the air, the world above the canopy, until …

(Buzz!)

Lulu: He saw a bee!

Babulall: Ah!

Lulu: And he told Sammy, “Now, to find the hive …”

(As Sammy talks, the quiet music is taken over by hip-hop bee beats. Bee-ats?)

Sammy: You have to notice which shape they make as they fly. If the bees are flying around in this sort of “S” kind of pattern? Well, they're flying back and forth, and back and forth–

Lulu: Okay?

Sammy: –Because they're looking for food.

Lulu: Oh, they’re, like, swooping back and forth, scanning for flowers?

Sammy: Precisely. They’re probably flying away from home if they’re doing that. But, if the bees are flying straight as an arrow, making a beeline …

(Lulu catches the pun and makes a little cymbal crash sound as she and Sammy nod to one another.)

Sammy: … That's how you know that they're going home.

Lulu: Wow! So he’s, like, fluent in their choreography?

Sammy: Exactly.

Lulu: And after watching just a few bees make a beeline in the same direction, Babulall told Sammy …

Sammy: “It's easy. You just follow them home.”

Lulu: So they head off in the motorboat in the direction the bees pointed.

(Motorboat sounds mix with Babulall singing.)

Lulu: And, a little while later …

(A small wave of water keeps moving as the motor of the boat softly slows and then stops.)

Sammy: Oh, it looks like we're docking here.

Lulu: Hop off where Babulall tells them to.

(Jungle and footsteps, mud, as Babulall gives instructions..)

Sammy: This forest was a different kind of place. When we stepped off the boat, you'd sink up to your knee in mud.

(The mud squelches.)

Sammy: And then you trudge into the forest and the mud is still sucking on your boots every time you lift them.

Lulu: It was a place Sammy never would have intentionally look.

Sammy: (Sing-song-y.) Ouch, ouch, ouch! Lots of thorns! (Now speaking to the others.) Alright, mud’s getting deeper down here, guys.

Lulu: There were tons of roots.

Sammy: Ope. Watch out. There’s these spikes right here.

Lulu: And critters.

Sammy: Crabs running around at our feet.

Lulu: That made it super hard to get through.

Sammy: Ooh-hoo! That got me!

Sammy: Mudskippers, these little fish that can breathe air and are bouncing around on the mud …

Lulu: But that was the direction the bees had secretly pointed.

Sammy: Be very careful with these roots, y’all.

Lulu: And because Babulall knew how to understand them, that was the direction he kept leading the team.

(Babulall speaks as he guides the group.)

Lulu: Until!

Sammy: (In complete awe.) Wow! Oh my goodness!

Lulu: A hive.

Sammy: Look at them!

Lulu: Hanging from a tree, full of giant honey bees.

Sammy: They are dancing on the comb, which is really cool.

Babulall: Dorsata!

Sammy: They're beautiful.

(Babulall laughs lightly.)

Mowgli: Do you have a plastic bag for the bees? He will be moving it away with his hand and he can just brush some into it.

Sammy: So Babulall, he–he scrambles up this tree, this time with a smoker to calm the bees.

Mowgli: Ten, I said.

Sammy: Ten would be great.

Mowgli: Twenty?

Sammy: Twenty would be even better!

(Mowgli translates to Babulall.)

Lulu: And up there in the tree, with his bare hands, Babulall scoops about twenty of these hard-to-find bees into a bag for Sammy.

Sammy: Yeah, that’s plenty. You can drop it.

(A thump as the plastic bag drops to the jungle floor.)

Lulu: And Sammy stood there for a moment, looking at these crystal balls in his hands.

Sammy: (Now in quieter awe.) Wow.

Lulu: Some of which could hold the key–the wriggling, parasite-shaped key!–to keeping our bees safe.

Sammy: Isn’t it gorgeous?

Lulu: And then he gazed up at the canopy he would have never thought to look above, without Babulall.

(A whooshing of wind as Sammy looks up.)

Sammy: I looked up for the first time and saw these tangled branches of all of these trees, spiders that have made these beautiful webs.

Lulu: And it hit him that the best way to keep finding the overlooked things–to keep finding the discoveries that will keep our bees safe–was to … Well, behave a little bit more like them.

Sammy: Bees have taken over the world because their capacity to work together is unparalleled.

Lulu: These tiny creatures make millions of gallons of honey a year. They swarm to take down predators 100 times their size and flap their wings in unison to air condition their hives on scorching hot days!

(Fwoosh! Fwoosh! Fwoosh! Bee air conditioning kicks in with each wingbeat.)

Sammy: And that kind of stuff only works with serious teamwork. They're better together.

(Sound from the group plays. Babulall speaks excitedly. Mowgli says, “It’s good! It’s good” in English, then translates. Other team members clap and laugh, excited at their discovery.)

Lulu: Thanks to Babulall, Sammy and the team are back in the lab with new bees to inspect and have already identified a tiny red parasite that could come for our bees some day.

(Crunchy mites crawl about.)

Sammy: A mite called the tropilaelaps mite–the “tropy mite” for short.

(Another whoosh.)

Lulu: Which means they’ve got a head start on figuring out how to stop it!

(Sammy makes the dramatic “dun dun dun” sound one last time as Lulu laughs.)

Lulu: Alright! I am gonna let you go so you and your team can go get [Pausing to soak in the pun she is about to make.] get bzzzz y. [Repeating the pun for emphasis.] Bzzz y on that.

Sammy: Oh my goodness.

Lulu: Okay, I will work on my puns! You work on vanquishing bee predators. (Sammy laughs.)

(Music.)

Sammy: (Rapping over an electronic beat, with a whole chorus to back him up.) I’m gonna work as hard as a honey bee showin’ the hive where the honey’s at. Brush that pollen off your shoulder, honey bee! It’s time to DANCE.

Waggle waggle waggle waggle

Shake it to the left Shake it to the right (ayyyy)

Waggle waggle waggle waggle

Shake it to the left Shake it to the right (ayyyy)

All the bees in the hive

Go on and brush that pollen off.

Brush that pollen off. Brush that pollen off.

Stretch your wings out and you make that buzzing buzzing sound.

Buzz buzz. Buzz buzz.

buzzing buzzing sound.

Do the math, honey bee, and spin your body ‘round.

spin your body ‘round

spin your  body ‘round.

Go to work! Point the way to all the food you found.

Go to work! Break it down uh huh uh huh

I’m getting hungry now.

Waggle waggle waggle waggle

Shake it to the left Shake it to the right (ayyyy)

Waggle waggle waggle waggle

Shake it for the bees in your little bee hive.

Waggle waggle waggle waggle

I know you dance when you feel the power.

Waggle waggle waggle waggle

You got the whole hive looking for flowers.

Waggle waggle waggle

I know you’ve got it figured out

The way you waggle waggle, honey bee, break it down.

Spin around, shake it now, hit me with that buzzing sound

And you waggle waggle ‘til the colony knows what you found

Apis dorsata always showing off ya fly choreography

It’s trigonometry.

From Bangladesh to India and Singapore.

More like sting-apore?

Don’t you get too close or we sting ya more!

Waggle waggle waggle waggle

Shake it to the left. Shake it to the right (ayyyy)

Waggle waggle waggle waggle

Shake it for the bees in your little bee hive.

Waggle waggle waggle waggle

I know you dance when you feel the power.

Waggle waggle waggle waggle

You got the whole hive looking for flowers.

Waggle waggle waggle waggle waggle waggle waggle

(The song winds down with a few last high-pitched waggles!)

Lulu: Alan Goffinski, everybody! And that is all for Terrestrials. There is nothing else cool about to …

(Suddenly, out of nowhere, trumpets … well, uh, trumpet! It’s The Badgers!)

Lulu: (Whispered.) What's that?

Badger #1: Excuse me, I have a question.

Badger #2: Me too.

Badger #3: Me three.

Badger #4: Me four.

Lulu: (Whispered, but somehow loudly.) The Badgers.

(The Badgers theme song plays underneath the questions.)

Lulu: Listeners with badgering questions for the expert. [A beat.] Are you ready?

Sammy: Absolutely.

Leona: Hi! My name is Leona, and I’m 6.

Felix: Hi! My name is Felix and I am 8.

Leona: Are all bees vegetarians?

Felix: And do some eat meat?

Sammy: Ooh! Okay, so we love to say that bees are just vegetarian wasps.

Lulu: Huh!

Sammy: But! There's a group of bees called the vulture bees.

Lulu: Okay.

Sammy: They do scavenge dead bodies of things, often entering through the eye socket and just …

Lulu: Eww!

Sammy: Yeah.

Lulu: And they'll eat, like, flesh?

Sammy: Yeah! They even make a honey-like substance from this regurgitated …

Lulu: (Through her hands.) I wanna …

Sammy: (Understandingly–this is gross!) … Yeah.

Lulu: I wanna regurgitate. Wait, they make, like, a corpse honey?

Sammy: Yeah.

Lulu: Eww!

Alex: Hi, my name is Alex and I’m seven years old. Why don’t we use bees to guard money or gold in bank vaults?

Sammy: Humans have used bees as guard dogs before in some parts of the world, including, um, regions in Africa.

Lulu: Really?

Sammy: Where, when they're trying to guard their crops from animals like elephants that might want to eat their crops–

Lulu: Yeah?

Sammy: –They will put a bunch of bee colonies on wired fences. And when the elephant pushes against the wire, it will shake the bee colony, [Lulu gasps.] the bees will come out, and the elephant will run away.

Lulu: How smart!

Elizabeth: Hi! I’m Elizabeth Tartakovsky. I’m 24 years old and I’m an Olympic fencer. My question is: Do all bees die after they sting you?

Sammy: No! The queen has what's called a “straight stinger.” So she can just stick it in and pull it back out. The queens only really use their stingers to fight other queens.

Lulu: Bees sting each other?!

Sammy: They do.

Lulu: It's like fencing? Booty fencing?

Sammy: (Cracking up at the question.) Booty–? “Booty fencing” is the best phrase that I've heard all week.

Juni: Hi! My name is Juni. I have a question!

Juni’s Dad: What’s your question?

Juni: Do bees [Saying “sleep” almost like “sheep”.] sleep?

Juni’s Dad: Are you asking, do bees sleep?

Juni: Yup!

Sammy: (Chuckling deeply.) Do they sleep? Yes, they do! And the adorableness–a lot of bees will actually sleep inside of flowers. If you open a squash plant's flowers really early in the morning, you'll often find squash bees–

Lulu: Yeah?

Sammy: –Sleeping in the flower and they often sleep holding hands with another squash bee.

Lulu: No.

Sammy: It's the cutest thing in the world.

Lulu: Are you serious?

Sammy: It's so cute.

(Credits music begins, like a layer of cloud cover descending over the end of the episode, tucking the bees in as they go to sleep.)

Lulu: I can't! Okay, I think we've got to leave it there with two sleeping bees holding hands in a yellow squash blossom.

(Lulu gently buzzes.)

Lulu: Terrestrials was created by me, Lulu Miller, with WNYC Studios.

This episode was produced by Alan Goffinski, Mira Burt-Wintonick, Joe Plourde, and me with help from Sammy Ramsey, Rico Hernandez, Amanda Gann, Madison Sankovitz, Chris Borke, and Shin Arun-rug-stichai.

​​The Terrestrials team also includes Ana González, Tanya Chawla, Sarah Sandbach, and Valentina Powers, with fact-checking by Diane Kelly.

Big special thanks this episode to Babulall Munda and Rubaiyat Mansur Mowgli, both of whom, by the way, will be credited on any scientific papers that come out of the work they did with Sammy in Bangladesh.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation, and the John Templeton Foundation.

Thank you!

And finally, if you have a topic–a story, a creature, a person–that you think has been overlooked who we should cover, or if you wanna badger an expert, please email us at

Songbud Alan and Lulu: (Singing over barking dogs, xylophones, bubbles, and autotune.) terrestrials@wnyc.org!

Lulu: Hoo hoo! And that’ll do it for today! Thanks so much for listening. See you in a couple spins of this dirty old planet of ours. [Lulu whooshes a little on her own as the credits music covers over her voice, too.] Bye!

# included[].attributes.twitter-headline
The Crystal Ball: Giant Honeybees Who Predict the Future

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Alan Goffinski (he/him), is an arts administrator, songwriter, and producer from Charlottesville VA. He is the former Executive Director of The Bridge Progressive Arts Initiative and the Charlottesville Mural Project—two city-wide organizations that utilize art and culture as a way for people to better understand themselves, each other, and the world around them. He is also a founding member of the Indianapolis-based whimsical performing arts collective Know No Stranger which has been described as “Sesame Street but for adults... but also for kids.” He produced the experimental music radio program Telemetry in partnership with the University of Virginia. Early in his career, Alan spent years making music in a nationally touring indie-punk band (signed to Victory Records) prior to becoming a social worker specializing in early childhood development. He began making kid’s music under the moniker Little Skunks as a fun way to be a part of the day-to-day lives of his nieces and nephew.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Ana is an audio producer and host who came to WNYC in 2021 to work on Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials. Before that, she produced and hosted Mosaic, a show about immigration experiences from Rhode Island Public Radio. In a former life, she played jazz bass and thinks about everything in terms of rhythm, conversation, and harmony.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Mira Burt-Wintonick (she/her) -- For the past 20 years, Mira’s been creating, story editing and sound designing various shows. Her work often explores grief and complex emotional landscapes (Love Me, Sorry About The Kid, Welcome to Paradise) but she’s also made some absurd comedy podcasts (WireTap, PenPals). She recently directed Wintopia, a feature documentary film about her late filmmaking father, Peter Wintonick, and his search for Utopia.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.body
Middle schooler, Aanya, has an up-close encounter with a squirrel in the school yard, which leads her to an obsession with one of North America's most common critters. She tells host Lulu Miller all about the overlooked superpowers of squirrels, including one squirrel who lives way up in the Arctic, where the weather gets so cold the squirrels who live there drop their body temperatures down below freezing and somehow, miraculously, survive.

Host Lulu travels to Alaska to meet one of these squirrels as it sleeps, and Lulu talks with biologists Dr. Kelly Drew and Dr. Brian Barnes about why this humble squirrel holds potential for treating Alzheimers, brain injury, and even helping astronauts hibernate on the long journey to Mars.

Check out the making of this episode here! Video by Amy Pearl.

This episode features a song with a cameo from Chicago-based musician Tasha. Check out our songs page for 'On The Other Side (ft. Tasha)' and more new singles every week.

Special thanks to Aanya and her mom Roli for bringing us this story, and to Amy Loeffler, Clara Goulet, Loi Goulet, Ellie Bell and Ferris Jabr, the writer who first made the “pop-squirrel" joke. We came across it in a wonderful article he wrote in Scientific American. Also, check out this Wired article by Brendan I. Koerner for more on arctic ground squirrels.

Terrestrials was created by Lulu Miller with WNYC Studios. This episode was produced by Ana González, Mira Burt-Wintonick, Alan Goffinski, Joe Plourde and Lulu Miller, with help from Tanya Chawla, Sarah Sandback and Valentina Powers. Fact checking by Natalie Middleton. Transcription by Caleb Codding.

Our advisors are Ana Luz Porzecanski, Andy J. Pizza, Anil Lewis, Dominique Shabazz, Liza Demby, Princess Daazhraii Johnson and Tara Welty.

Learn more about storytellers, listen to music, and dig deeper into the stories you hear on Terrestrials with activities you can do at home or in the classroom on our website, Terrestrialspodcast.org.

Badger us on social media: @radiolab and #TerrestrialsPodcast or by emailing us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Visit the Terrestrials website to learn more about the show, meet our team, listen to the songs and discover fun activities, drawing prompts, music how-tos and games that educators, parents and families might enjoy together.

If you’d like to “badger” a future expert, suggest story ideas or feedback, email us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Listen to just the songs from Terrestrials.

Sign up for Radiolab’s newsletter! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up here.

Radiolab for Kids and Terrestrials are supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, X and Facebook @radiolab.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation.

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Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.show-title
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

# included[].attributes.series[].about.body
Terrestrials is a show for people of all ages that explores the strangeness that exists right here on Earth. In each episode, host Lulu Miller (co-host of Radiolab) will introduce you to a creature or earthly phenomenon that will defy your expectations of how nature is supposed to work. Along the way, you'll encounter a chorus of experts, including scientists, surfers, hip hop artists and…a "Songbud" named Alan (indie punk musician Alan Goffinski) who creates original songs for key moments of confusion, discovery or awe. New episodes drop Thursdays. Listen in with your whole family. Or all alone.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundation.

LISTEN TO TERRESTRIALS  | SUPPORT TERRESTRIALS | TERRESTRIALS WANTS YOUR FEEDBACK! | PRESS INQUIRIES  | BECOME A SPONSOR | CONTACT US

# included[].attributes.series[].tease
A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.series[].logo-image.alt-text
Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

# included[].attributes.tease
Middle schooler, Aanya, has an up-close encounter with a squirrel in the school yard, which leads her to an obsession with one of North America's most common critters. She tells host ...

# included[].attributes.title
The Snowball: Extreme Squirrels in the Arctic

# included[].attributes.transcript
Lulu Miller: Three, two, one!

(Old-timey cartoon circus music enters as Lulu narrates.)

Lulu: Imagine you turn into a tiny tightrope walker.

Aanya: Your tail is balancing you.

Lulu: And you are sprinting–

(Pshoo!)

Lulu: –Across a narrow powerline!

Aanya: The wind is whistling.

(Wind rushes around you as you prepare to jump to the ground.)

Lulu: Suddenly, you leap into the air and begin soaring without wings.

Aanya: You glide in the wind.

Lulu: And when you hit the ground–

(A resounding thump!)

Lulu: –You ready yourself for your wildest trick. Which is to–

(Poof! Could it be magic?)

Lulu: Shut off your brain–and then regrow it!

(Electricity sparks.)

Lulu: You have become …

Aanya: A squirrel!

(The music rises up to a high point–a rapturous moment!–then fades.)

Lulu: Alright, now is when we sing the theme song!

Aanya: Cool!

Songbud Alan Goffinski: Terrestrials, terrestrials, we’re not the worst, we are the …

Aanya: (Having trouble guessing it.) Um.

Songbud Alan: Bestrials!

(Aanya laughs, a little “hee hee”.)

Lulu: Terrestrials is a show where we uncover the strangeness right here on earth. I am your host Lulu Miller joined as always by my songbud:

Songbud Alan: Hello!

Lulu: Alan.

Songbud Alan: (Signing, autotuned.) Time to get squirrely!

Lulu: This season we are looking at creatures that are usually–

Songbud Alan and Lulu: –Overlooked! [A beat.] Shh!

Lulu: And today’s esteemed squirrel expert is:

Aanya: Aanya! I’m 11.

(Cool skater music picks up.)

Lulu: Aanya lives in Los Angeles and, in many ways, she’s a typical kid.

Aanya: I go to the skatepark a lot ‘cause I like to skateboard.

Lulu: And she used to have a pretty typical relationship with squirrels.

Aanya: I’d walk past them and I wouldn’t think anything.

Lulu: They disappeared into the background. They were the definition of ordinary! You could see ‘em in your backyard, in parks, in trash cans …

Songbud Alan: (In a high, squeaky squirrel bro voice.) ‘Sup, bro?

Lulu: But one day, a squirrel ripped–

(Uh oh! A rip!)

Lulu: And I mean literally tore its way into Aanya’s life and revealed this wild secret one species holds in its brain–that just could be the key to sending humans to Mars!

(Space sound.)

Lulu: Alright! So, shall we do this thing?

Aanya: Yeah!

(A skateboard flies past, the music fades, and the sound of other kids playing on the playground comes up.)

Lulu: So Aanya’s story begins one day when she was nine years old and she dared to pack something enticing in her backpack.

Aanya: Peanuts!

Lulu: During recess, she dropped the bag on the ground during recess, and when she came back—

(Lulu gently gasps.)

Aanya: There was a big hole!

(Riiiiip!)

Lulu: And nearby, a little gray squirrel.

Aanya: He teared [sic] out the literal fabric!

Lulu: He just ripped right through it?

Aanya: Yeah. Probably with his teeth.

Lulu: And Aayna noticed him–like, truly noticed him.

Aanya: Its little tongue as it was opening its mouth.

Lulu: Happily chomping peanuts.

Aanya: Crunch, crunch!

Lulu: And as she watched him chew, she was filled with all kinds of questions about this furry little peanut thief.

Aanya: Yeah.

Lulu: So she started researching.

(Exciting, inspiring squirrel music plays.)

Lulu: And found out all kinds of neat stuff about squirrels, like how their brains are so sharp, they can remember the location of over a thousand buried nuts or seeds.

Songbud Alan: (As a squirrel, chomping happily.) That’s way more than you humans could! (Chuckles.)

Lulu: And their teeth are so sharp because they never stop growing. So they have to constantly chew on things to file them down.

Like backpacks, or porch furniture–or even electric power lines!

(Songbud Alan gets zapped. Yow!)

Aanya: Squirrels may have disrupted the mainframe more than hackers have.

(Electricity surges!)

Lulu: Really?

Aanya: Yeah!

(Another zap! Ooh!)

Lulu: According to some estimates, squirrels are responsible for one of every five power outages!

Songbud Alan: (As a squirrel.) Sorry, not sorry!

(The music quiets.)

Lulu: But they are not all bad news for human society.

Aanya: Squirrels plant trees!

Lulu: Wait, what?

Aanya: Mhm!

Lulu: Aanya explained that, as good as those little squirrels are at remembering where they hid their treasures, they do forget where they put [Laughing lightly.] up to 25% of them.

Meaning that, when spring comes, with a little rain and a little sun, some of those forgotten seeds …

Aanya: Grow into a tree, which helps us breathe.

(An atmosphere of calm music, sunshine and sprouting plants, builds.)

Lulu: Woah! That’s such a poetic image, that this combination of, like, greed and forgetting lets us breathe!

Aanya: Yeah!

(A rush of cool air flows out, reminding you to take a deep breath of the air squirrels help to make!)

Lulu: But Aanya was about to claim something even wilder.

Of all the hundreds of species of squirrels that exist out there, like flying squirrels and multicolored squirrels–like the ones from India, where Aanya’s mom is from– it turns out there is a squirrel that lives in the Arctic and spends its winters under the snow getting so cold that, according to Aanya, its flesh turns–

(Tinkling ice signals the squirrels turning to ice.)

Lulu: –Into a kind of popsicle–or pop-squirrel!

Aanya: Because they have this thing that helps them change their body temperature when they're underground.

Lulu: Can any other warm-blooded creatures turn their bodies that cold?

Aanya: No.

(A beat.)

Lulu: I wanted to believe her, but it just seemed physically impossible for a mammal like us to drop below freezing for months.

Lulu: (Stunned, explaining Aanya’s story.) … And not freeze to death?! Like, is she right?

Dr. Kelly Drew: She is right!

(Exciting music plays.)

Lulu: This is Dr. Drew.

Kelly: Kelly Drew. I grew up in Alaska.

Lulu: She spends her life studying arctic ground squirrels, squirrels with light golden fur and stubby little tails that somehow survive a winter hibernating.

Kelly: These animals can actually go below freezing–their core body temperature can actually go a couple of degrees below freezing.

Lulu: Wow!

Lulu: Now, if our core body temp was to go below freezing, our blood would freeze–and the ice crystals would rip through our flesh and, most of us, we would be dead within a day.

But for some reason the squirrels are totally fine! … For months on end. And Kelly has invited me up to Alaska to hold one of these frosty squirrels in my hand to see how they do what they do.

(The music fades out, replaced by the sound of wind rushing around.)

Lulu: (On a plane.) Alright, I am buckled in!

Lulu: So one cold February day, I hopped on a plane.

Lulu: (On the plane.) And we are about to take off.

(An airplane takes off.)

Lulu: And ten hours later, I landed.

Lulu: Hoo!

Lulu: On an even colder February day–

(Lulu lets out a “Wahoo!”)

Lulu: –Just a few hours from the Arctic Circle.

Lulu: We have reached the tundra! [Whispering.] And I’m about to go see a very special creature.

Kelly: So that would be this way.

(Footsteps crunch on the snow.)

Lulu: I’m on a snowy hilltop with Dr. Drew–

Kelly: Yeah.

Lulu: –Surrounded by snowy mountains–

Lulu: (Realizing, laughingly.) Oh, it is cold!

Lulu: –As far as the eye can see.

Kelly: Yeah, it’s a little windy!

Lulu: I’ve got a million layers on, including thick wool mittens.

Lulu: Like, if I took off my mittens, how quickly do you think I’d get frostbite?

Kelly: Many, many minutes.

Lulu: (Laughing at how fast that is for something so serious.) Many whole minutes without my flesh dying!?

Kelly: I mean, you know. Yeah!

Lulu: Meanwhile, right beneath us under the snow, are some creatures!

Kelly: They are hunkered down. And they don't have to worry about it being cold outside.

(Underground squirrel city music plays, uptempo and soft.)

Lulu: Beneath us, Kelly explained, is an intricate system of burrows.

Kelly: They have really long toenails and they can dig down until they hit ice.

Lulu: After spending the summer fattening up as much as they can, the squirrels line their burrows with soft mosses and lichens and caribou fur. And, as winter descends, each ones curls itself into a tight little ball all by itself.

(Squirrel city music gives way to wind, then quiet.)

Lulu: And they enter a sleep deeper than sleep. They don’t eat, they don’t dream, they don’t even … POOP!

Kelly: They don't defecate for eight months.

Lulu: (Shocked.) For eight months? (She gasps!)

Kelly: Yeah, ‘cause they’re not eating!

Lulu: These little squirrels are so knocked out you could play catch with ‘em–and scientists in the 1960s did! And they wouldn’t wake up.

Lulu: So to get one of these squirrels, should we just start digging?

Kelly: (She laughs.) Well, we might just go to the lab and find one there.

Lulu: Great, because I’m losing the ability to talk. I think my lips are freezing!

Kelly: Wow!

(The two laugh together. Then, their laughter fades out.)

Lulu: When we come back, we’ll come face-to-frosty-little-adorable-face with one of these hibernating squirrels and see what their brains may have to do with space travel.

(One last beat of squirrely music, and then it is ad break o’clock!)

(Plucky string music mirrors the excitement of Lulu’s heartbeat.)

Lulu: Alright, Terrestrials is back! I’m Lulu, and my heart is beating very quickly, because I’m about to meet one of the world's most extreme hibernators.

Lulu: Oh! So excited!

Kelly: Well good! (Laughter.)

Lulu: Kelly is holding an arctic ground squirrel in the palms of her hands.

Kelly: So this is number 2036.

Lulu: Oh my gosh.

Lulu: It's not moving at all! Its head is curled under its tail.

Kelly: Here, you can hold her.

Lulu: Oh wow! She is freezing! It’s like a furball the size of a grapefruit, say, and it feels like holding a snowball.

Lulu: She truly feels like … [Searching for the right word.] a corpse. She’s motionless. Her eyes are shut, and it’s hard to believe there could be any life inside.

Kelly: It’s very hard to tell if they're dead or alive until you see them breathe.

Lulu: But after about two minutes …

(A tiny breath in.)

Kelly: Oh, there’s one!

Lulu: A breath.

Kelly: I mean, I've watched over three minutes and not seen a breath before.

Lulu: (Surprised again – these little guys are amazing!) A single breath?

Kelly: Yeah.

Lulu: Wow!

Lulu: See, to survive the cold without food for the long long winter, the hibernating squirrels slow everything down.

Kelly: You know, like turning down your thermostat in your house? You’re going to save energy.

Lulu: They slow their breath.

(A tiny exhale.)

Lulu: They slow their heartbeat.

Kelly: I mean, their heart goes from 300 beats per minute [A quick heartbeat, slowing down.] down to 5 beats per minute!

Lulu: Whoa.

Lulu: And then …

Kelly: The brain shuts down.

Lulu: They turn off their brain.

(The music echoes away, leaving behind a moment of quiet.)

Lulu: So, this squirrel in my hands? She’s basically brain-dead.

Kelly: Just on the edge of death …

Lulu: All that noisy chatter and electricity–

(Noisy chatter and electricity grows and grows … !)

Lulu: –That’s normally whizzing through a brain? It just–

(Then, suddenly, with the flip of a switch, the electricity is gone!)

Lulu: –Flatlines.

(A beat.)

Lulu: And it isn’t just that the electricity powers down, the cells the electricity travels through begin wilting, too.

These cells in the brain are called neurons.

Kelly: If you think about a neuron as looking kind of like a tree …

Lulu: Normally they have long branches that reach out to other neurons. That’s how one part of our brain communicates with another. But when Kelly looked inside the hibernating squirrel’s brain, she saw that …

Kelly: The branches get smaller and less complex.

Lulu: They kinda shrivel.

(Bark crunches up as the tree shrinks.)

Kelly: They’re just pruning back.

Lulu: Connections that store memories break and wither away. And their brain stays like that for weeks–shriveled, and, because the heart is beating so slowly–deprived of so much of the oxygen that usually feeds it. If that happened to a human brain for that long … ?

Kelly: It’s dying and not coming back.

Lulu: If it happened to a human brain for even a few minutes, it would be disastrous. We would lose memories. We might have trouble speaking or walking. It would look like the brain of someone who had a serious brain injury, or a disease like Alzheimer’s.

But these squirrels …

Lulu: Oh, yeah! There–okay, there we go!

Lulu: … Are different.

Lulu: We got activity!

Kelly: Oh yeah!

(A tiny spark jolts to life.)

Lulu: When an arctic squirrel begins to wake up from its very long, very cold slumber, they shiver awake over the course of three hours.

Kelly: That’s shivering!

Lulu: After about an hour and a half, the little snowball squirrel began to ever-so-occasionally shake her little arms.

Kelly: She’s waking up!

Lulu: Yeah, this is a creature waking up!

Kelly: It’s almost like a little convulsion. They’re shivering to generate heat.

Lulu: Oh yeah! She’s lifting that little head. Those–those big buck teeth are on display.

(Electric trees–neurons–regrow!)

Lulu: And as they’re warming up, their brain regrows! Those wilted neurons start to branch out again, like a forest blooming after a fire.

Kelly: Yeah, that’s a nice way to think about it. Like fire weed coming in after a fire.

Lulu: (Repeating, still surprised.) Completely regrowing–in just three hours!

Kelly: It happens so fast.

Lulu: It just feels like they’re–they’re skirting the laws of nature.

Kelly: They skirt the rules of just about everything that we know. They definitely have something special going on!

(Gentle droning music plays.)

Lulu: This is why Kelly studies the squirrel. If she and other scientists can figure out how it regrows its brain, we might be able to help humans who've had brain injuries or diseases regain some of what they've lost.

Kelly: I would think it would be cool–no pun intended–but to be able to cool and re-warm as a treatment for emergency medicine, maybe mental health. There’s all kinds of possibilities!

Lulu: Like helping people … on the very very long journey … to Mars!

Kelly: You can imagine what it’s like being in a small spacecraft, you know.

Lulu: Oh man. The boredom, the drama, the human conflict!

Kelly: Yeah! So if you can stay in a hibernating state, it would be very beneficial.

Lulu: Because …

(One big snore, big enough to wake up a whole space station, loudly interrupts.)

Lulu: … If the astronauts were sleeping for weeks at a time, not only wouldn’t they be squabbling or getting bored, they wouldn’t have to eat as much.

(The snores continue.)

Lulu: Which means you could pack way less heavy food and make it easier for the spaceship to blast off!

(The music drifts through space, passing by synthesizer stars along the way.)

Lulu: And Kelly has gotten so close to figuring out the brain chemicals that turn the squirrels brains off and and back on that she recently became the official “Hibernation Consultant” for a NASA-funded group working on how to get to Mars.

Lulu: They're going to try to start going to Mars supposedly in, what, like, 2040 or something?

Kelly: Yeah.

Lulu: I mean, how realistic do you think it is that we could get humans hibernating in, like, 20 years?

Kelly: I think that it would be possible.

(A twinkle of synthesizers.)

Lulu: But what really got me interested in these squirrels is this idea that every spring, as they regrow their brain, in some sense, they are emerging anew.

(The music quiets.)

Kelly: They go through puberty all over again, so that’s what spring is for them.

Lulu: Oh! What?!

Kelly: So they have puberty every year.

Lulu: (Still processing.) What?

Lulu: Kelly explained that even though they are adults before they go into those burrows, with adult private parts, adult hormones, adult brains, when they emerge in the spring …

(A rewind.)

Kelly: They wake up as an adolescent again, really, you know?

Lulu: They power down and almost become kids again? (She laughs at the thought.)

Kelly: Exactly.

Lulu: That's so wild. But, so–for real though, so much of who we are–not all of it, but a lot of who we are–resides in the brain: our likes, our fears, our memories. If some of that is lost during that sort of pruning period, in a real way, like, are they the same self?

Kelly: Yeah, that’s a really good question.

(Wandering music emerges from the burrows with the squirrels.)

Lulu: Scientists are still trying to figure out just how much these squirrels change after hibernation. But some studies show that when they first come out of their burrows in springtime, they’ll explore way further than they did before–almost like they’ve forgotten the boundaries of their territory! Or maybe they’ve just forgotten their fear of what lies beyond …

Lulu: But there is one thing that definitely remains.

Kelly: They remember their buddies. They can remember their friends.

Lulu: Groggy and disoriented in many ways, they will run right up to their friends they haven’t seen in over half a year and nuzzle their noses.

Kelly: They need each other, and that is something that is retained.

Lulu: Wow. So they've evolved in a way that, you know, they can–they can forget where they hid their food, or what they used to be afraid of, but if you know who your friends are, that'll–that'll help you survive.

Kelly: Yeah.

Lulu: That’s kinda beautiful. Is that too touchy-feely?

Kelly: (Laughing.) No, I like it. (Lulu joins in Kelly’s laughter.)

(A beat–another Songbud Alan song this way comes!)

Songbud Alan: (Singing.) I know we’ll claw our way out of this winter.

We will thaw and shiver into spring.

I know we will survive and find each other,

Even if we forget everything.

We will find each other on the other side!

We will find each other on the other side!

(The music picks up pace, just in time for an instrumental break.)

Songbud Alan: We will find each other on the other side!

If you forget who you are

After months in the dark

Buried in the snow and the cold

If you forget who you are

All the places you’ve been

All the secrets you’ve known

Are now frozen

If you forget who you are

And your memory fades

From your delicate brain

Please just know

We will find each other on the other side!

We will find each other on the other side!

We will find each other on the other side! (If you forget who you are!)

We will find each other on the other side! (If you forget who you are!)

We will find each other on the other side! (If you forget who you are!)

We will find each other on the other side!

(One last drumbeat and the music cuts out before one last line.)

Songbud Alan: We will find each other on the other side!

Lulu: Alan Goffinski, my friend, and yours! And that’s it, there’s nothing else cool about to go down–

(Suddenly, out of nowhere, trumpets … well, uh, trumpet! It’s The Badgers!)

Lulu: (Whispered.) What's that?

Badger #1: Excuse me, I have a question.

Badger #2: Me too.

Badger #3: Me three.

Badger #4: Me four.

Lulu: (Whispered, but somehow loudly.) The Badgers.

(The Badgers theme song plays underneath the questions.)

Lulu: Listeners with badgering questions for the expert. Are you ready?

Kelly: Yeah!

Clara: Hello, my name is Clara. I’m 10 years old. Why do squirrels like nuts? They could like literally any food–why nuts?

Kelly: I suppose that they like them because they're packed full of protein and energy. It's like an energy bar.

(Lulu laughs at the thought as a squirrel chows down.)

Kelly: But they'll eat just about anything. They eat flowers and they eat mushrooms. And, I mean … they'll eat their buddy, you know. (She laughs, maybe a little nervously.)

Lulu: (Incredulous, not able to believe it.) No, they will not.

Kelly: They do!

Lulu: Will they eat–will they cannibalize?

Kelly: I've–I've seen them eating roadkill.

Lulu: (Gasps.) Okay, a–a dead buddy.

Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't–yeah. They'll scavenge, right?

Lulu: Okay, okay.

Chenjerai Kumanyika: Hey, I’m Chenjerai Kumanyika. I’m 51, and I wanna know: Do squirrels have language?

Kelly: Yeah. They’ll alarm others if there’s an aerial predator or a terrestrial predator with different chirps.

Brian Barnes: One is [Imitating a squirrel chirp.] TSK-TSK, TSK-TSK.

Lulu: This is Brian Barnes, Kelly’s colleague she told us to talk to because he’s basically fluent–TSK-TSK–in squirrel-speak.

Brian: What it means is “Ground predator, watch out!” and it can be a fox or a bear.

(A loud roar comes out of nowhere. Good thing you had that squirrel-speak to warn you!)

Brian: They have a second call, which is [Brian whistles.] and it means “Aerial predator”.

(Lulu caws loudly–is she secretly part-eagle?)

Brian: Here comes a golden eagle, or a raven.

Lulu: Wow! So, like, different words!

Brian: Yes, absolutely.

Millie: Hello! My name is Millie, and I’m 8 years old. Do any animals actually freeze–like, turn into ice–when they hibernate?

Brian: The wood frog.

(Lulu ribbits!)

Lulu: Huh.

Brian: The heart freezes, the eyes freeze. They’re [Knock knock!] 70% ice.

Lulu: Wow.

Brian: And if you bent the leg …

(SNAP! Uh oh!)

Brian: It would snap off.

Lulu: Wait! But how does the freezing … not hurt the flesh?

Brian: They turn themselves excessively sweet!

(A ding! So sweet!)

Brian: Its blood sugar acts to protect it.

Lulu: So if you snapped off one of its frozen legs ...

(Another SNAP!)

Lulu: … Would it be sweet like a popsicle?

Brian: You know, my grad student has done that.

Lulu: (Gasps.) He ate–he ate it?

Don Larson: Yes!

Lulu: This is the grad student!

Don: Hi! My name is Don Larson.

Lulu: And he specified this was not a lab frog, but one he caught in the wild with his fishing license, and he said he actually tasted a bit of the frog’s liver.

(The music fades out and, slowly, gives way to the credits music.)

Don: Yeah, just cooked it up in a skillet, fried it. [Lulu laughs. And it was a very sweet liver. You can taste the sugar, yeah.

Lulu: Alright, I think that’s the best place to leave it, with the curious grad student and the frozen frog. Terrestrials was created by me, Lulu Miller, with WNYC Studios.

Our team includes Alan Goffinski, Mira Burt-Wintonick, Ana González, Tanya Chawla, Sarah Sandbach, Joe Plourde, Valentina Powers, and me, with fact-checking by Diane Kelly.

Big special thanks this episode to Aanya and her mom Roli for bringing us this story, and to Amy Loeffler, Clara Goulet, Loi Goulet, Ellie Bell, and Ferris Jabr, the writer who first made the [Icy sounds!] "pop-squirrel" joke. I came across it in a wonderful article he wrote in Scientific American.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation.

Thank youuu!

Teachers! We also wanted to let you know we are now offering all kinds of free teaching materials for many of the episodes. We’ve got handouts, classroom activities, really fun discussion prompts. And we worked with professional educators and the team at PBS Learning Media to make sure everything accords with national curriculum standards for science literacy. And we have ‘em for grades K-8! Check those out on our website, RadiolabForKids.org.

So many new episodes coming your way over the next few months. Catch ya in just a couple spins of this lumpy old planet of ours.

Woo woo woo, woo woo woo!

Bye!

(The credits music plays out.)

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The Snowball: Extreme Squirrels in the Arctic

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Alan Goffinski (he/him), is an arts administrator, songwriter, and producer from Charlottesville VA. He is the former Executive Director of The Bridge Progressive Arts Initiative and the Charlottesville Mural Project—two city-wide organizations that utilize art and culture as a way for people to better understand themselves, each other, and the world around them. He is also a founding member of the Indianapolis-based whimsical performing arts collective Know No Stranger which has been described as “Sesame Street but for adults... but also for kids.” He produced the experimental music radio program Telemetry in partnership with the University of Virginia. Early in his career, Alan spent years making music in a nationally touring indie-punk band (signed to Victory Records) prior to becoming a social worker specializing in early childhood development. He began making kid’s music under the moniker Little Skunks as a fun way to be a part of the day-to-day lives of his nieces and nephew.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Ana is an audio producer and host who came to WNYC in 2021 to work on Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials. Before that, she produced and hosted Mosaic, a show about immigration experiences from Rhode Island Public Radio. In a former life, she played jazz bass and thinks about everything in terms of rhythm, conversation, and harmony.

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Mira Burt-Wintonick (she/her) -- For the past 20 years, Mira’s been creating, story editing and sound designing various shows. Her work often explores grief and complex emotional landscapes (Love Me, Sorry About The Kid, Welcome to Paradise) but she’s also made some absurd comedy podcasts (WireTap, PenPals). She recently directed Wintopia, a feature documentary film about her late filmmaking father, Peter Wintonick, and his search for Utopia.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.body
As dead as they seem, tree stumps are hubs of life and relationships. From stumps to snags, deadwood provides habitat for rodents, falcons, insects, and even humans! Stumps hold together the forest floor, give hunting perches to birds of prey in flatlands, prevent erosion and the encroachment of invasive species, usher in sunlight, provide nutrients, can be wells of renewable fuel, and hold onto stories human beings might have forgotten. Without these ghosts of trees past, nothing would be the same. Scottish author, artist and lover of tree stumps, Dr. Amanda Thomson, leads host Lulu Miller on a “tour de stumps,” a journey across space and time to learn about some of the most magical stumps on the planet. We learn  how these overlooked dead things actually sustain the living.

Get a glimpse of the making of this episode!

For more, check out:

Bob Dolgan’s documentary about Tyler Funk and “The Magic Stump."

Amanda Thomson’s book “Belonging: Natural histories of place, identity and home.”

Now you can listen to just the songs wherever you get your music! Check out our season 1 album, Terrestrials - Just the Songs Season 1, on Spotify, Apple Music, or our music page.

Terrestrials was created by Lulu Miller with WNYC Studios. This episode was produced by Ana González, Mira Burt-Wintonick, Alan Goffinski, Joe Plourde and Lulu Miller, with help from Tanya Chawla, Sarah Sandback and Valentina Powers. Fact checking by Natalie Middleton. Transcription by Caleb Codding.

Our advisors are Ana Luz Porzecanski, Andy J. Pizza, Anil Lewis, Dominique Shabazz, Liza Demby, Princess Daazhraii Johnson and Tara Welty.

Learn more about storytellers, listen to music, and dig deeper into the stories you hear on Terrestrials with activities you can do at home or in the classroom on our website, Terrestrialspodcast.org.

Badger us on social media: @radiolab and #TerrestrialsPodcast or by emailing us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Visit the Terrestrials website to learn more about the show, meet our team, listen to the songs and discover fun activities, drawing prompts, music how-tos and games that educators, parents and families might enjoy together.

If you’d like to “badger” a future expert, suggest story ideas or feedback, email us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Listen to just the songs from Terrestrials.

Sign up for Radiolab’s newsletter! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up here.

Radiolab for Kids and Terrestrials are supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, X and Facebook @radiolab.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation.

# included[].attributes.headers.brand.logo-image.alt-text
Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

# included[].attributes.headers.links[].title
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.show-title
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

# included[].attributes.series[].about.body
Terrestrials is a show for people of all ages that explores the strangeness that exists right here on Earth. In each episode, host Lulu Miller (co-host of Radiolab) will introduce you to a creature or earthly phenomenon that will defy your expectations of how nature is supposed to work. Along the way, you'll encounter a chorus of experts, including scientists, surfers, hip hop artists and…a "Songbud" named Alan (indie punk musician Alan Goffinski) who creates original songs for key moments of confusion, discovery or awe. New episodes drop Thursdays. Listen in with your whole family. Or all alone.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundation.

LISTEN TO TERRESTRIALS  | SUPPORT TERRESTRIALS | TERRESTRIALS WANTS YOUR FEEDBACK! | PRESS INQUIRIES  | BECOME A SPONSOR | CONTACT US

# included[].attributes.series[].tease
A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.series[].logo-image.alt-text
Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

# included[].attributes.tease
As dead as they seem, tree stumps are hubs of life and relationships. From stumps to snags, deadwood provides habitat for rodents, falcons, insects, and even humans! Stumps hold toget...

# included[].attributes.title
The Stumpisode: The Wild World of Tree Stumps!

# included[].attributes.transcript
Lulu Miller: Three, two, one …

(Mysterious forest music plays, a little twinkle in the night, like the opening to a Halloween movie.)

Amanda Thomson: Imagine you’re standing in the middle of a forest. Your arms break off.

(Crunch, crack! There go your arms)

Amanda: And your insides hollow out.

(The wind moves through you, all empty now!)

Lulu: Your skin turns hard and rough.

Amanda: Humans think of you as being dead, like a ghost.

(A werewolf-like howl echoes somewhere behind you. But then, as Amanda and Lulu continue, the music becomes less haunted, and werewolves give way to the gentle sing-song of bugs and birds in conversation with one another.)

Lulu: But the birds and insects and rodents know the truth about you.

Amanda: Inside, you are brimming with life.

Lulu: You birth babies.

Amanda: You fight fire.

Lulu: You can even catch time.

(Tick-tock, tick-tock! A clock rings in a new hour.)

Lulu: You have become …

Amanda: A stump.

(A triangle dings, signaling that it is time for the theme song!)

Lulu: (Laughingly.) Now is the part where I make you sing the theme song with me!

Amanda: Oh god. Okay.

Songbud Alan Goffinski and Lulu: (Over the theme music.) Terrestrials, terrestrials, we are not the worst. We are the–

Amanda: Best?

Songbud Alan: (Finishing the song.) Bestrials!

Lulu: Yeah, you got it! (Amanda laughs softly.)

Lulu: Terrestrials is a show where we uncover the strangeness waiting right here on earth. I am your host, Lulu Miller, joined as always by my songbud–

(Songbud Alan hoots a hello.)

Lulu: –Alan!

Songbud Alan: (Singing intensely over heavy metal guitars.) It’s the Stumpisode!

Lulu: This season, we are looking at things that are usually …

Songbud Alan: (Excitedly echoing, but hushed.) Overlooked! [A moment.] Shh!

Lulu: And today’s guide through the wild world of tree stumps is Scottish artist and writer and tree expert, Amanda Thomson.

Amanda: I don't see myself as being an expert on trees. [Lulu laughs in a bouncy, excitable way.] Maybe more a lover of trees.

(New forest music enters, led by a marimba, a larger, lower xylophone, warm and slow.)

Lulu: Now, Amanda grew up like most of us, not really noticing stumps. Or, if she did, noticing what they weren’t.

Amanda: Trees are for climbing, aren't they?

Lulu: Can’t build a treehouse in a stump. Can’t get shade from a stump.

Amanda: No!

Lulu: So stumps seemed like broken things, sad things, dead things.

(The music fades out after one final note.)

Lulu: Until one day she happened across a stump that would cast a sort of spell on her.

(Fairytale music kicks in.)

Lulu: A spell that would make her see these quiet, dead-seeming stumps, completely differently.

Amanda: They don't look like they're doing anything, but they're doing so much.

Lulu: Alright. So, like most good fairy tales, this one begins in the woods–the deep dark woods of Scotland.

(The fairytale music is replaced with a winding fiddle song and the sound of footsteps in the hay.)

Lulu: Amanda is staying in a friend’s cottage, taking care of the chickens [A chicken murmurs a chicken hello.] and one day she decides to go for a walk in the ancient pines.

(More footsteps.)

Lulu: She wanders deeper and deeper into the dark until suddenly a stump catches her eye.

(The fiddle slowly fades out, to be replaced by a mournful violin, a ray of light in the dark of the woods.)

Amanda: It was very pale. A lot of the bark had fallen off of it, so it was almost silver.

Lulu: It was a kind of stump called a snag, where part of the tree still stands, but it’s hollow inside.

Amanda: All of the upper branches had snapped.

Lulu: And as she studied its kinda-spooky form, the giant stump began casting its spell.

(A sprinkling of fairy dust adds magic to the sound landscape–the soundscape.)

Amanda: I just started to notice all these dead trees in the middle of all the life that was going on.

Lulu: And without really knowing why, she got out her camera and began …

(The snap of a camera.)

Lulu: Taking pictures!

(Snap, snap!)

Amanda: They’re almost like skeletons.

Lulu: Can you say any more about what drew you to them at the beginning?

Amanda: I was just drawn to their difference.

Lulu: She [A meaningful pause.] related to that feeling.

Amanda: So, when I was growing up, I was about the only Black kid in a small town. I had such a lovely childhood, but there's moments where you are made to feel different, you know, and you experience racism. And, whether it's intentional or unintentional, you still feel it.

Lulu: Hmm.

Amanda: So when I was starting to look at the dead trees and trying to think about what they meant for me …

Lulu: They reminded her a little of her, and she wanted to extend a kind of care to them that she didn’t always get as a kid.

Amanda: There’s a lot of kindness that comes when people start to understand the value of difference and what difference can contribute, if that makes sense.

Lulu: (Humming in agreement.) Hmm.

Lulu: And so …

(Another snap as the music changes tone: hopeful, open notes dissolve into the air all around as Amanda takes more pictures.)

Lulu: She kept spending time with these dead trees, trying to get to know them by taking pictures of them.

Amanda: They’re beautiful shapes …

Lulu: And [Scribbling away.] drawing them.

Amanda: Made some films.

Lulu: –Of dead trees. Etchings of dead trees. Sound recordings of, you guessed it:

Amanda: Dead trees.

(Lulu laughs, seeing the pattern.)

Lulu: But her understanding of the value of stumps really clicked in when she started following scientists on walks through the woods. They peeled back the bark, so to speak, and showed her just how many–

(Anticipating Amanda’s words, a bird twitters a sweet song.)

Amanda: –Different beasties that are there.

Lulu: Beasties like beetles and wasps and mushrooms and flies!

(The buzzing of a fly–a hum of life.)

Amanda: They hold so much life within them.

Lulu: The scientists taught her there is a whole class of creatures that need stumps to live. They’re what’s called …

Amanda: Saproxylic.

Lulu: Saproxylic?

Amanda: Uh-huh.

(Lifey sounds buzz their way in.)

Lulu: Fungi slurp up crucial nutrients like a wood smoothie.

(Slurp!)

Lulu: Wasps chew up the deadwood to make nests.

(Nom nom nom!)

Lulu: Beetles lay their babies inside.

Beetle: (Buzzing.) Night night.

Lulu: And some stumps break apart to reveal whole new worlds.

(A big CRUNCH as the bark splits.)

Amanda: Sometimes in the holes, like, you can get water as well, so that creates another micro-habitat.

Lulu: Uck–[Laughing suddenly.] like a little pool, a little pond in the dead tree.

Amanda: Yeah! (Lulu laughs.)

Lulu: And while wasps or beetles might sound kind of annoying–

(A fly buzzes by.)

Lulu: –Without them you’d lose pollinators, and little magicians that turn rot into crucial nutrients for the forest floor–and you’d lose food!

(A satisfying crunch, like a bite into a stick of celery.)

Lulu: Crunchy snacks for bigger creatures! In short, without stumps and deadwood, the forest ecosystem would pretty quickly collapse.

(The music cuts out.)

Amanda: Studies reckon that a healthy forest needs 30% deadwood in order to be a healthy forest.

Lulu: Woah, that is so much of the forest!

Amanda: Absolutely.

(Uptempo electronic music begins to play in anticipation of the adventure!)

Lulu: But Amanda was just getting started. She would go on to spend the next 20 years studying stumps.

Amanda: Yeah!

Lulu: And is now going to take us on a Tour de Stumps, a world tour road trip of stumps doing things I would never dream they could: Saving lives, creating cities, and even changing the sky.

(Caw, caw!)

Amanda: That's brilliant, isn't it?

Lulu: The tour departs the station …

(Train whistle.)

Lulu: … Right after this short break!

(The break.)

Lulu: Terrestrials is back. And I am lacin’ up my hiking boots for a [Adopting a French accent] “Tour de Stumps”: three stumps hidden on our planet that aren’t famous, but totally should be.

Amanda: Uh-huh.

Lulu: That’s our stump lover, Amanda Thomson.

Lulu: Okay, Amanda, where are you taking us for stump one?

Amanda: We're going to Illinois.

Lulu: Rural Illinois!

(The sound of wind rushing around a car in motion.)

Lulu: To meet a stump that changed the sky!

Lulu: I’m somewhere in southern Illinois. I'm looking out at a bunch of windmills, just … (Lulu hums softly to herself.)

Lulu: Once Amanda revealed the location, I hopped in my car and drove for hours.

Lulu: (Driving.) A lot of fields.

Lulu: Through flat, kinda dry-looking industrial bean farms and corn farms. Until … !

Lulu: Oh!

Lulu: I turned off onto a little dirt road, to meet with a firefighter.

Lulu: (To Tyler Funk.) Hey, it's great to meet you.

Lulu: Named Tyler Funk who, well, discovered this stump.

Lulu: (To Tyler Funk.) So we are approaching stump.

Tyler Funk: We're close.

(Footsteps crunch through plants at the end of their season.)

Lulu: We walk for a while on the mud and sprouts of a bean farm, until …

Lulu: Yeah, it's kind of gnarled and almost black–really dark brown.

(Music.)

Lulu: We reach a huge stump. It’s up to my shoulders.

Lulu: It's very typical, like, pretty flat-top. [Lulu pats the stump.] Little bit of bird poop on it. (She laughs lightly.)

Lulu: Now, Tyler, like Amanda, didn’t think he cared about stumps! He was more into …

Lulu: That’s a lot of birding gear!

Tyler: Yeah.

Lulu: Do you have binocs?

Lulu: Birding!

Tyler: They’re in here.

Lulu: Oh woah, yeah, those are big ones! Cool!

(Tyler and Lulu keep talking, but their conversation fades as Lulu-in-the-present narrates.)

(Cheesy nature documentary music plays.)

Lulu: On his way to the fire station many mornings, he would get up early and pull off on the side of the road to quietly observe little birds coming out of the brush, like …

Tyler: Sparrows!

Songbud Alan: (Adopting a posh British voice, delicate and very nasal.) And sweet little warblers and finches, flitting about in their natural habitat.

Lulu: And then, one day in 2010, he saw something very out of place.

(A hardcore guitar riff plays. Something very heavy metal is on its way!)

Lulu: A prairie falcon! Now, allow me a brief aside to tell you how prairie falcons are the goblins of the sky.

(A resounding “caw” echoes out in perfect time with the music: the sound of a prairie falcon!)

Lulu: Most raptors shoot down from above and grab their prey in their talons. But a prairie falcon …

(A rush of wind as the falcon dives down.)

Tyler: It’s going so fast and it punches something with its fists and it can just–I don't want to be morbid–but it can just basically disintegrate–

(Poof! In a quick motion, the falcon’s target becomes a cloud of dust!)

Tyler: –You know, what it hits!

Lulu: Oh, so it doesn't grab, it just punches?

Tyler: Yes. It's just like hitting it with a hammer.

Lulu: Woah.

(Woosh!)

Lulu and Songbud Alan: Gnarly!

(One last lick of music and it cuts out.)

Lulu: Now, for Tyler’s half a century of birding, he had never seen a prairie falcon in Illinois before. Those birds preferred the American West, where there were tons of jagged cliffs and boulders off of which they could perch and hunt prey.

So, for years, Tyler and some other birders kept scanning the sky, wondering if they’d see it again. And every now and then over the years, they did. And slowly, carefully, they tracked it to its home base, which was …

Songbud Alan: (Over trumpet fanfare, using a goofy bird-voice.) Doo-doo-doo!

Lulu: This stump.

(Pat-pat-pat. Lulu pats the stump. Yep! That stump.)

Lulu: This huge tree stump in the middle of a farmer’s field.

(Soft pan flute music plays a loop, moving up and down, up and down.)

Lulu: In the early mornings, Tyler would sit in his car near the stump and, like magic, the falcon–so rarely seen in these parts–would appear from the sky.

Tyler: You could just watch him stretching his wings, you know, yawning.

Lulu: And … hunting. The stump made the perfect perch for the falcon to scan for prey.

Tyler: Oh yeah.

Lulu: Tyler was amazed by the stump. But he had, you know … fires to fight. So, he asked the farmer if he could set up a camera so he could monitor the stump 24/7. And that’s when things got even weirder–because it wasn’t just a falcon coming.

Tyler: (Many different thoughts all mix together in this sentence.) I have footage of a snowy owl sitting on the stump, raptors, kestrels, Cooper’s Hawk, red-tailed hawk, rough-legged hawk …

Lulu: Woah.

Lulu: And it didn’t stop there.

Tyler: Coyotes, uh, have been up there. So they've had a pretty good jump to get up there. I think I've had a skunk up there, a weasel, a mink, rats, possums, and there's mice that come out and crawl around on that stump.

Lulu: It was almost like a fairytale where the stump was a kind of magnet that pulled rare beasts from the sky and below.

Tyler: Actually this winter I had a bobcat on top of that.

Lulu: (Stunned.) What?!

Tyler: Yeah. Yeah, I really didn't expect to see that. (He laughs lightly.)

(With the twinkle of a windchime, the music fades out. As Lulu speaks, a western ambience, sparse and spare, plucks guitar strings slowly, deliberately. Crickets enter in.)

Lulu: Tyler’s theory is that those huge, flat, bean-and-corn farms in southern Illinois … Well, as much food as they might produce for us, they don’t have much to offer the other critters of the earth.

Tyler: We're looking at basically scarred earth that’s–all you can see is dirt. There’s–there's really no, uh, biodiversity out here.

Lulu: Huh, so it’s kind of like a desert out here?

Tyler: I–I think actually a desert probably has better biodiversity [Lulu laughs.] than this does, to be honest with you.

Lulu: It's worse than a desert. Okay.

Tyler: (Laughing alongside Lulu.) It's worse than a desert, yeah.

Lulu: But the stump, in its way, is bringing life back. Its wood feeds bugs, which attract rodents, which hide in the roots, which attract bobcats and coyotes and even those rare raptors, which are now darkening the sky with wings that hadn’t been seen in decades.

(Another prairie falcon cry rings out alongside a wind chime.)

Lulu: Which is why Tyler–and others–now call it:

Tyler and Amanda: (In unison.) The magic stump.

(A beat.)

Lulu: Okay, so that was stump number one. Amanda, where’s the next stump on our tour?

Amanda: We are going to Buckhannon, West Virginia.

Lulu: (Singing the song “Country Roads Take Me Home”.) West Virginia! [Amanda chuckles in response.] Uh, and now, apparently, we are gonna up the ante. We’re gonna meet a stump that’s not just a hotel for rodents and birds and coyotes …

Amanda: Humans.

Lulu: (Audibly surprised.) Humans?

Amanda: Yeah.

Ana: So we're walking across a field, kind of like a soccer field. There's a little river to our right.

Lulu: We sent the songbud Alan and producer Ana to go check it out.

Ana: There it is! [Songbud Alan chuckles.] Straight ahead is this large–

Songbud Alan: –Big, wiry–

Ana: –Wiry, white?

(Ana and Songbud Alan make the inter-Terrestrial sign for stump: a “pat pat”.)

Songbud Alan: I love how this tree looks. Like, it looks old.

Lulu: Alright, so we are gonna roll back to the 1700s. The forest was dense with ancient oaks and spruces and maples.

(Wandering marimba music plays.)

Gene Thorn: And it was the absolute wilderness. Huge trees.

Lulu: This is Gene Thorn, a wildlife biologist who is probably the world expert on this one particular stump.

Gene: Yeah! (Gene laughs.)

Lulu: And the story goes that running through the forest were two brothers–

(Heavy breathing and heavy footsteps.)

Lulu: –Who were trying to escape. Now this was way back before the United States was a country and the British were trying to colonize the land. And those two brothers were scouts in the British Army, but they didn’t want to fight anymore. So they’d abandoned their posts and ran into the forest as fugitives.

(More heavy breathing.)

Lulu: And as they ran, they were looking for a place to hide from–

Gene: –C opperheads, rattlesnakes, mountain lions–

(A roar.)

Lulu: –And, of course, the British Army! They would be in huge trouble–[Whispering, an aside.] like, executed trouble–if they were caught. And one day, these brothers–

Gene: –S am and John Pringle–

Lulu: –They ran to the banks of a river.

(Alongside the riverbank, they stop to catch their breath. The water flows smoothly)

Lulu: And they saw–

(An angelic choir intones the sound of something amazing.)

Gene: Well, that's where they found the hollow sycamore tree.

Lulu: A massive hollow stump with bright white bark.

Gene: It was over 11 foot high, 11 foot wide. It's the size of a bedroom in an apartment.

Lulu: Wow!

Lulu: So, tentatively, they climbed inside.

Songbud Alan: (Climbing in, bark crunching underfoot.) I can't believe how deep that goes.

Ana: I can't believe you're standing up right now.

Songbud Alan: Oh, easy, too! Like, I've got–I can put my arms straight up in the air and I am not touching the top.

Lulu: And they liked it! It was warm, cozy.

Ana: (Sniffing loudly.) It smells like a fresh forest floor.

Songbud Alan: Yeah, well, it is.

Lulu: So! They decided to move in … And almost immediately began tricking out their stump.

(Goofy, bouncy TV show theme music music.)

Ana: (Dramatically, as the host of the MTV show Cribs.) Welcome to MTV Cribs: Stumps Edition!

Songbud Alan: (As an MTV Cribs co-host.) Today we got the Pringle brothers.

Ana: Let’s check out–

Both: –This stump!

(Both continue this way, really hamming it up.)

Songbud Alan: First we got the beds!

Ana: A mattress made of leaves!

(Crinkle, crunch.)

Ana: Layers of fur hides!

Songbud Alan: Fuzzy!

Gene: (Explaining calmly, not in the style of the Cribs intro.) They used their hides for blankets.

Songbud Alan: Mad cozy!

Ana: And check out this door!

(Creaks.)

Gene: … Made out of bark!

Songbud Alan: Custom-made!

Gene: Tanned skins to keep the winter weather out and so forth.

Songbud Alan: Yo, and no stump is complete without a lit fireplace!

(Ana laughs at the tongue-in-cheek use of the word “lit” as the fire crackles.)

Songbud Alan: For cooking up gamey stew!

Ana: Ooh! But [Now coughing.]–but where’s all that smoke gonna go?

Gene: A little opening at the top where the smoke went up and out. It's just like a chimney.

Songbud Alan and Ana: See ya next time.

(Cribs sound design ends.)

Lulu: (Laughing.) Wait, but, so–if you were to, like, walk through the forest and you come across this giant 11-foot tall stump, and there'd be, like, a little–a little trail of smoke coming out the top?

Gene: Yeah. So you'd have a smoky smell.

Lulu: Okay, I'm picturing them in there. They've got, like, meat jerky hanging on the [Chuckling.] walls. Are wolves and bears and other critters not drawn to that smell?

Gene: Now that's a really interesting question!

(A bear growls ferociously.)

Lulu: Because apparently one day a bear did attack!

(The bear keeps growling as dramatic music begins–the chase!)

Lulu: Well, after Sam had tried to shoot it.

Gene: He had big, red eyes, and there were these snarls of saliva coming out of his mouth.

Lulu: Gene, it turns out, is also a historical reenactor who will sometimes dress up as Sam Pringle and tell the legend of the bear attack as though he was Sam himself.

Gene: (Reenacting, as Sam.) So I drew my knife out, and by that time, he had hit me and got me down on the ground, and he was chewing on me.

(In the background, Songbud Alan makes struggling sounds.)

Lulu: (Listening intently, as though Gene really was Sam.) Oooh!

Gene: And I sunk that knife behind his shoulder. And I blacked out right then.

(A beat as the music cuts out.)

Lulu: A few hours later …

Gene: (As Sam.) John, he found me [Songbud Alan, playing John, shouts out, “Samuel!”] laying on the ground and he had to ca–literally carry me down off of the hill and into our tree. And he laid me down and put a blanket on me and tucked me up.

Lulu: Good brother, John.

Gene: (As Sam.) Great brother.

(Mysterious forest music begins again, this time with a foggy sound.)

Lulu: Sam’s little brother knew he was going to have to hike hundreds of miles to the nearest town to find supplies. So, he left Sam there all winter long [Songbud Alan, as Sam, shivers.] vulnerable, aching, the snow swirling outside–protected by the stump. And after months …

Gene: (As Sam.) I was running out of food. It was getting critical.

Lulu: But then, one glorious day …

(The forest song gives way to another angelic choir.)

Gene: (As Sam.) Back over the mountains, here came John, and he was refreshed with good news: The war was over! And so the British army was no longer looking for us.

Lulu: So, they were safe to move to a nearby town. Sam got married, they moved into a house, but after just a little bit of time, he realized he missed his stump! So he convinced his wife and some friends to return!

Gene: (Back as Gene again.) Pioneers came over the mountain with ‘em. And they all lived in that tree ‘til they got their cabins built.

Lulu: Wow!

Gene: So there were several families actually that lived in there for a time period.

Lulu: (As if telling Gene to slow down.) Woah. So, like, how many people do you think in that one stump?

Gene: About 10 to 12 people that would have been inside there. Yeah.

Lulu: Oh, that's a tight pack. (She laughs at the thought, and so does Gene. Sardines in a big tree tin!)

Lulu: The stump sheltered them as Sam Pringle and his friends built cabin after cabin, which would eventually turn into the city of Buckhannon, which now has over 5,000 people. And alongside the river that flows through the town is a park where the stump used to be. And right near it is a hollow sycamore tree that they've named the Pringle Tree!

Ana: All right, pass me a Pringle, Pringle.

Songbud Alan: All right, we are in the Pringle tree and we are eating–

Ana: –Pringles.

Songbud Alan: Pringles! Cheers.

Ana: Cheers.

(The two crunch their potato chips loudly.)

Ana: They taste better in the tree.

Songbud Alan: (Agreeing.) They taste better in the tree. They sound better in the tree.

Ana: Mhm!

(An even bigger crunch! Then, it gets remixed, looped, and repeated until it becomes too hard to recognize.)

(A beat. Time for a new stump stop!)

Lulu: Alright. We have visited the magic stump that changed the sky, the Pringle stump that birthed a city–Amanda, where are we going for our final stump stop?

Amanda: We're going to Wales.

(Stormy ocean sounds roar as bells clang.)

Lulu: Wales, a small seaside nation in the UK, where, in 2014, a mighty tempest rolled through. There was wind and fog and lightning.

(The storm darkens audibly.)

Lulu: The waves swelled high into the sky.

Amanda: Very choppy.

Lulu: But when the storm finally passed …

(The storm calms suddenly. Eerie music lays a foundation for a mysterious story.)

Amanda: There arose from the water all these mysterious structures.

Lulu: Dozens of black pointy–

Amanda: –Protrusions that looked like shark's fins.

Lulu: But upon closer inspection …

Amanda: It turned out they were stumps.

Lulu: Ha!

Amanda: Petrified snags and stumps.

Lulu: Petrified, meaning hardened–

Amanda: (Giving another meaning.) Fossilized!

Lulu: –Into this forest of preserved deadwood, poking out from the sea.

(Waves enter as the music fades away.)

Lulu: People came from all over to wander through these ghost trees, and as they did, they noticed that in the fossilized dirt, there were …

Amanda: Human footprints of children and adults–

Lulu: –From more than 5,000 years ago!

Amanda: Scientists analyzed the footprints and learned that this area, which was deep underwater, used to be a human civilization.

(A brief beat of music, old-timey and whimsical.)

Lulu: And the wild part is, this scientific data held in the stumps echoed an ancient legend from Wales: A sort of local fairytale about a great town that was swallowed up by the ocean!

(The sound of waves creates a bed of sound under string music.)

Lulu: Now, no one really knew if that story was true or not. But the stumps offered up a pretty good guess!

Amanda: I think there's a lot of histories if you start to pay attention to looking at a tree and–and what you see in them.

Lulu: Hmm.

(Toot toot!)

Lulu: Well, that concludes Amanda's “Tour de Stumps”!

Amanda: It’s just been so lovely spending time talking about stumps with you, Lulu!

Lulu: Ah, it’s been the best! And that was only three stumps out of all the stumps you’ve written about, out of all the stumps on the planet!

Amanda: Yeah!

Lulu: There are also redwood stumps that kind of fight forest fire with their special thick bark, and "stumps that shelter baby bats like woody nurseries,” and a stump in Tanzania that keeps shooting out new life!

Amanda: (She laughs, thinking about so many stumps.) Yeah!

Lulu: And there are probably so many other secrets and powers waiting in the dead-looking parts of the forest!

Amanda: (Laughs.) Absolutely. I’m still learning.. I haven't finished yet, but I don't know where I'm gonna go next.

(Time for a new Stump Song!)

Baby Voice: (Singing and spelling.) S-T-U-M-P!

S-T-U-M-P!

S-T-U-M-P!

S-T-U-M-P!

Echoed Baby Voice: S-T-U-M-P baby!

S-T-U-M-P baby!

S-T-U-M-P baby!

S-T-U-M-P baby!

Songbud Alan: If you’re a stump or a snag, a fabulous dead wood

You make me glad the way only a stump could

I know there’s more to you than meets the eye

No lie, you sure got me mystified.

I try to get to the root of it, oh.

I’m out on a limb, I can’t leaf it alone.

Hot shot I wanna know what ya got.

Dead wood, aha!

I’m gonna watch ya rot.

Baby Voice: (Singing and spelling.) S-T-U-M-P!

S-T-U-M-P!

S-T-U-M-P!

S-T-U-M-P!

Songbud Alan: One and two, tree, four. Hard-core arbor.

A tree corpse on the forest floor.

Check out the stump. [Echoed.] Thump thump.

That’s what I’m looking for.

They say you’re dead wood

But I think you’re kinda not

Because you’re full of life

Yeah you’re so alive

What more could anybody want from the

One and only S-T-U-M-P!

Baby Voice: (Singing and spelling.) S-T-U-M-P!

S-T-U-M-P!

S-T-U-M-P!

S-T-U-M-P!

Echoed Baby Voice: S-T-U-M-P baby!

S-T-U-M-P baby!

S-T-U-M-P baby!

S-T-U-M-P baby!

Songbud Alan: (Continuing over the layered baby voices, some of them chanting out as if cheering him along!) Stumpy stumpy stump stump.

Stumpy stumpy stump stump.

Stumpy stumpy stump stump.

Stumpy stumpy stump stump [Extra deep] STUMP.

Lulu: A-L-A-N Goffinski! [Chuckles lightly] Alan Goffinski, everyone, bringing down the house with the materials that make the house: the wood, the stumps, the planks, the snags! And that’s it! That is it for today, nothing else cool about to happen–

(Suddenly, out of nowhere, trumpets … well, uh, trumpet! It’s The Badgers!)

Lulu: (Whispered.) What's that?

Badger #1: Excuse me, I have a question.

Badger #2: Me too.

Badger #3: Me three.

Badger #4: Me four.

Lulu: (Whispered, but somehow loudly.) The Badgers.

(The Badgers theme song plays underneath the questions.)

Lulu: Listeners with badgering questions for the expert. Are you ready?

Amanda: Yeah!

Joe: Hey, my name is Joe! I’m 29 years old. My question is: Does the stump know that the rest of the tree is gone?

Amanda: That's quite sad. And quite existential. Maybe it's just living its own moment.

Elise: My name is Elise, I’m six years old. Can trees get band aids for snags?

Amanda: You're gonna have to ask a scientist about that question.

Lulu: Okay! Gene?

Gene: Yeah, they can. There's people that make a living–they call themselves tree surgeons.

Lulu: Huh!

Gene: And if you get a broken branch off you can actually go and wrap it up with a Band-Aid.

Lulu: Wow!

Gene: And kind of a tar-y-like substance goes underneath to keep the moisture from getting inside and causing rot.

Lulu: Wow! I wonder if tree surgeons have to take a hippocratic oak. (Gene and Lulu laugh at the corny–but clever!–wordplay on a doctor or nurse’s “hippocratic oath,” or promise.)

Siya: Hi! My name is Siya. I’m 12 years old. My question is: Do bears scratch themselves on dead wood, or only on trees that are alive?

Gene: For the most part, they choose live trees.

Lulu: Huh!

Gene: They're getting rid of their winter coat, so they'll rub up and down the tree–

(Sound of scratching.)

Gene: –And take that fur off.

(“Ohh,” goes the bear!)

Gene: The other thing that happens, trying to rub and get ticks dislodged and off of themselves.

(Sound of scratching as the bear groans.)

Gene: And there's been some recent research that the oils of off pine tree resin are actually a tick repellent.

Lulu: Smart! Ha!

(The bear sighs, as if relieved.)

Mark: Hi! My name is Mark. I’m 33 years old. And I’m joined by Sophie and Cindy, ages 5 and 2. And we’d like to know: Why do we say we are stumped when we run into a question we can't answer?

Amanda: Hmm. Is it because of the shape of the stump? You can't see the–kind of a way to branch off–

Lulu: (As if groaning, catching the tree joke.) Ehhh!

Amanda: –Into your thinking? [Lulu laughs.] I have been stumped! (Both chuckle.)

Lulu: Well, that is the most perfect place to leave it.

(Pat-pat–the stump sound! As the episode wraps up, ethereal, cloud-like music floats up softly.)

Lulu: Biggest thanks again to Amanda Thomson. If you would like to read her beautiful writing, check out her book, Belonging. There is a lot in there about tree stumps, other overlooked things, and people. And it’s got a gorgeous painting of a hollow stumpy snag on the front. Again, that’s Belonging, by Amanda Thomson.

Terrestrials was created by me, Lulu Miller with WNYC Studios. This episode was produced by Ana González, Mira Burt-Wintonick, Alan Goffinski, Joe Plourde, and me, with help from Tanya Chawla, Sarah Sandbach, Valentina Powers. Fact-checking by Natalie Middleton.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation, and the John Templeton Foundation.

(Shouting out as if a sports announcer.) Thank youuu!

Also–wanted to give a big shout to the documentary, The Magic Stump. That is how I learned about Tyler Funk’s stump–[Singing.] Tyler Funk’s stump! Mrreow!–in Illinois. It’s a great documentary. Bob Dolgan is the filmmaker. You should go watch it. See all the raptors and beasts and humans that, you know, come pay homage to this stump. That, again, is called The Magic Stump.

(A beat.)

Lulu: Finally, teachers, we have free–free, free, free teaching materials on our website that go along with many of the episodes. We worked with PBS Learning Media to make sure everything aligns with national standards. We’ve got ‘em for grades K through 8. And they are free, and they are fun, and you can find them and print them out at RadiolabForKids.org.

If you are liking what you are hearing over here in Terrestrials, please like and subscribe to the podcast. It helps our chances of continuing on–like a tree stump!–giving more life and audio stories to you. [Lulu chuckles.]

Aight, that’ll do it! Thanks so much for listening! Catch you in a couple spins of this dirty ol’ planet of ours.

Ooo-woo-woo!

Bye!

(The credits music fades out.)

Gene: Then in the summer there’s almost always a barred owl that you can hear from right here. And they make a sound that is “Who cooks for you? Who cooks for you all?” And I’ll do you a little rendition of that: (He imitates the bird call, which sounds exactly the way he said it would.)

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The Stumpisode: The Wild World of Tree Stumps!

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Terrestrials is Radiolab's spin-off nature show for families and  for people of all ages that explores the strangeness that exists right here on Earth. Each episode feels like a fairytale that is 100% true. Host Lulu Miller (co-host of Radiolab) leads you on a nature walk to encounter incredible creatures, wild storytellers, and original songs from "The Songbud" Alan Goffinski. That's right! We sing on this show; don't worry, good voices not required. Listen in with your whole family. Or all alone.

This season, we are tackling the overlooked – the treasures, secrets, and wildness waiting right underneath our noses. From tree stumps, to lichen, to humble squirrels that fade into the background so easily. When you look close at the creatures we usually ignore, you’ll find all kinds of secrets hidden inside.

Terrestrials welcomes entomologist Dr. Sammy Ramsey  as the show’s official “Bug Correspondent.” The show’s “Songbud,” composer Alan Goffinski, returns with new songs featuring guest performances from Laura Jane Grace, Tasha, Timbre and Mike Kinsella of American Football. Over the course of the season, Lulu Miller talks to poets, painters, NASA scientists, Indigenous bee hunters, 11-year old skaters, arctic biologists, and “The Badgers” — a panel of kids who badger experts with their pressing questions.

The seven-episode season begins on Sept. 19 in the Radiolab for Kids podcast feed. Episodes come out every Thursday.

Visit the Terrestrials website to learn more about the show, meet our team, listen to the songs and discover fun activities, drawing prompts, music how-tos and games that educators, parents and families might enjoy together.

If you’d like to “badger” a future expert, suggest story ideas or feedback, email us at terrestrials@wnyc.org.

Listen to just the songs from Terrestrials.

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Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, the Kalliopeia Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation.

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Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

# included[].attributes.show-tease
A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.show-title
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

# included[].attributes.series[].about.body
Terrestrials is a show for people of all ages that explores the strangeness that exists right here on Earth. In each episode, host Lulu Miller (co-host of Radiolab) will introduce you to a creature or earthly phenomenon that will defy your expectations of how nature is supposed to work. Along the way, you'll encounter a chorus of experts, including scientists, surfers, hip hop artists and…a "Songbud" named Alan (indie punk musician Alan Goffinski) who creates original songs for key moments of confusion, discovery or awe. New episodes drop Thursdays. Listen in with your whole family. Or all alone.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundation.

LISTEN TO TERRESTRIALS  | SUPPORT TERRESTRIALS | TERRESTRIALS WANTS YOUR FEEDBACK! | PRESS INQUIRIES  | BECOME A SPONSOR | CONTACT US

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.series[].logo-image.alt-text
Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

# included[].attributes.tease
Terrestrials is Radiolab's spin-off nature show for families and  for people of all ages that explores the strangeness that exists right here on Earth. Each episode feels like a fairy...

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New Episodes of Terrestrials Coming in September!

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LULU MILLER: Did you know Radiolab has a new podcast all about nature? Well, now you do! It's called Terrestrials. It's family friendly, occasionally musical. And for our brand new season, we scoured the globe.

MAN: Underwater.

WOMAN: In the desert.

LULU: Braving wild beasts.

WOMAN: It bit me several times.

LULU: And our own confusion.

LULU: So honey doesn't come out of bees?

MAN: No!

LULU: To uncover ...

MAN: Look at them!

LULU: ... overlooked creatures.

MAN: They're beautiful.

LULU: And overlooked storytellers.

WOMAN: I didn't really speak much—or really at all.

LULU: Who have life-changing secrets to share.

LULU: Join us for a nature walk that just might get you to fall in love with this planet again.

SONGBUD: Woo!

LULU: Come hang out with us.

SONGBUD: [singing] Oh, oh! Grow together better than alone.

LULU: Terrestrials, out now in the Radiolab for Kids feed wherever you listen to podcasts.

SONGBUD: [singing] Together better than alone!

-30-

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of programming is the audio record.

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New Episodes of Terrestrials Coming in September!

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The Terrestrials team is delighted to announce we’re coming back to the Radiolab for Kids feed! We’ve been traveling the globe in search of the strangeness right here on Earth. And we’ll be sharing a whole new batch of stories – and songs – in September.

In the meantime:

-catch up on past episodes!

-bop your head to songbud Alan’s songs!

-check out our brand new teaching resources!

Support for Terrestrials is provided by the Simons Foundation, the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, and the Kalliopeia Foundation.

# included[].attributes.headers.brand.logo-image.alt-text
Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

# included[].attributes.headers.links[].title
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

# included[].attributes.npr-analytics-dimensions[]
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

# included[].attributes.show-tease
A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.show-title
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

# included[].attributes.series[].about.body
Terrestrials is a show for people of all ages that explores the strangeness that exists right here on Earth. In each episode, host Lulu Miller (co-host of Radiolab) will introduce you to a creature or earthly phenomenon that will defy your expectations of how nature is supposed to work. Along the way, you'll encounter a chorus of experts, including scientists, surfers, hip hop artists and…a "Songbud" named Alan (indie punk musician Alan Goffinski) who creates original songs for key moments of confusion, discovery or awe. New episodes drop Thursdays. Listen in with your whole family. Or all alone.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundation.

LISTEN TO TERRESTRIALS  | SUPPORT TERRESTRIALS | TERRESTRIALS WANTS YOUR FEEDBACK! | PRESS INQUIRIES  | BECOME A SPONSOR | CONTACT US

# included[].attributes.series[].tease
A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.series[].logo-image.alt-text
Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

# included[].attributes.tease
The Terrestrials team is delighted to announce we’re coming back to the Radiolab for Kids feed! We’ve been traveling the globe in search of the strangeness right here on Earth. 

# included[].attributes.appearances.producers[].bio
Ana is an audio producer and host who came to WNYC in 2021 to work on Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials. Before that, she produced and hosted Mosaic, a show about immigration experiences from Rhode Island Public Radio. In a former life, she played jazz bass and thinks about everything in terms of rhythm, conversation, and harmony.

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Alan Goffinski (he/him), is an arts administrator, songwriter, and producer from Charlottesville VA. He is the former Executive Director of The Bridge Progressive Arts Initiative and the Charlottesville Mural Project—two city-wide organizations that utilize art and culture as a way for people to better understand themselves, each other, and the world around them. He is also a founding member of the Indianapolis-based whimsical performing arts collective Know No Stranger which has been described as “Sesame Street but for adults... but also for kids.” He produced the experimental music radio program Telemetry in partnership with the University of Virginia. Early in his career, Alan spent years making music in a nationally touring indie-punk band (signed to Victory Records) prior to becoming a social worker specializing in early childhood development. He began making kid’s music under the moniker Little Skunks as a fun way to be a part of the day-to-day lives of his nieces and nephew.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.shows[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].bio
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

Her book, Why Fish Don’t Exist, is an international bestseller, translated into 11 languages. It was chosen as a Best Book by The Smithsonian, NPR, The Chicago Tribune, Brainpickings, The Washington Post and was a finalist for the LA Times Book Prize and the American Association for the Advancement of Science Book Prize. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She has also won honors from The National Academy of Sciences, the Associated Press, the National Center on Disability and Journalism, and most recently an Honorary Doctorate of Science from Swarthmore College.

She reports on a range of scientific topics with a special interest in disability, mental illness, and ecology. Her written work has been published in the New Yorker, The Paris Review, VQR and beyond. She serves as a Contributing Advisor to nature magazine Orion and she was the co-founder of NPR’s Invisibilia—a radio show about psychology, emotion, and human behavior. She recently published her debut children’s book, Trucky Roads, about trucks and, you’ll never guess this… roads. She lives in the Chicago area with her wife and two sons.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].lede
Lulu Miller is a Peabody Award-winning science journalist. She is the Co-Host of Radiolab (with the wonderful Latif Nasser). And she is the Host/Creator of Radiolab’s podcast for kids, Terrestrials, all about nature. She was Radiolab’s first producer 20 years ago, and it is a thrill to return as Co-Host to the world’s best team.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.body
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].about.people[].image.alt-text
Producer Sarah Qari, smiling and standing proudly in the foreground of a field of sunflowers.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].description
About Radiolab

Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser.

Radiolab is available on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC, ABC, and the BBC.

Follow Radiolab on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Contact Radiolab using this form.

Apply to become a Radiolab intern!

Embed the Radiolab widget on your blog or website.

All press inquiries may be directed to Jennifer Houlihan Roussel at (646) 829-4497.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

# included[].attributes.appearances.hosts[].shows[].tease
Investigating a strange world.

# included[].attributes.body
In the game of life, every species is like an action figure. You got your dogs and your dung beetles, your bald eagles and your blueberries. And for a long time scientists believed it was pretty much impossible for those action figures to mix and make a new kind of action figure that was able to have its own babies (dog beetles? Baldberries? Nah). But, today we tell the story of a four-legged beast in Kentucky whose existence is upending scientific beliefs. If you want a big fat SPOILER, here it is: the creature in question is a mule! After almost 20 years of living her life as a hybrid (a mix between a horse and a donkey), believed to be incapable of having babies, Peanut the mule shocked the world by doing the impossible. Peanut’s owners, Teresa and Jerry Smothers, tell us the story of her life. Evolutionary biologist Dr. Molly Schumer explains how scientists’ understanding of hybrids has changed dramatically over the course of Peanut’s lifetime. And no mule episode would be complete without a cowboy-hatted mule packer leading us deep into the rocky trails of the American West on muleback to explain why mules are the best of both worlds of their parents.

Learn about the storytellers, listen to music, and dig deeper into the stories you hear on Terrestrials with activities you can do at home or in the classroom on our website, Terrestrialspodcast.org.

Watch a hybrid gameshow and find even MORE original Terrestrials fun on our Youtube.

Badger us on Social Media: @radiolab and #TerrestrialsPodcast

Support for Terrestrials is provided by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations.

More from Terrestrials

The Shovels: Dig Deeper

For each episode of Terrestrials, we provide a selection of activity sheets, drawing prompts, musical lessons, and more. We call them “shovels” because we hope they will help you (and your friends, family, students, neighbors, etc) dig more deeply into the world! You can do them at home, in the classroom, outside, or in the privacy of your own mind. We hope you enjoy!

If you want to share what you’ve made, ask an adult share it on social media using #TerrestrialsPodcast and make sure to tag @Radiolab

Draw -  Get creative with a special listen from our friends from DrawTogether

Do - We've put a bunch of concrete - and even kinda fun - things we can all do to help protect the nonhuman life on this planet IN BINGO form!

This week’s storytellers are Jerry and Teresa Smothers, Dr. Molly Schumer and mule packer James Reeves.

Want to keep learning? Check out these resources to learn about the sure-footed, stubborn hybrid helper that is the MULE:

Watch a TV news report about Peanut and Miracle
Ligers and Zonkeys and Narlugas, Oh my! Read an article about hybrids in nature and whether being a hybrid helps or hurts your genetic success.
Learn the story of the first narluga (narwhal and beluga) spotting.
Learn more about James Reeves, Mule Packer to the stars! Or, rather, to the mountains.
Follow Mule Packer James Reeves’ instagram, full of videos of him and mules!
Is breeding hybrids (like Ligers) unethical?
Did you know mules are STILL used in the military? Check out Susan Orlean’s wonderful article about that.
A video about the myth of Pegasus vs. The Chimera
“Mules and More” Magazine
Detailed list of reports of fertile mules over history

Terrestrials is a production of WNYC Studios, created by Lulu Miller. This episode is produced by Ana González, Alan Goffinski and Lulu Miller. Original Music by Alan Goffinski. Help from Suzie Lechtenberg, Sarah Sandbach, Natalia Ramirez, and Sarita Bhatt. Fact-check by Natalie Meade. Sound design by Phoebe Wang with additional engineering by Joe Plourde and Andrew Dunn. Our storytellers this week are Jerry and Teresa Smothers, Dr. Molly Schumer, and mulepacker James Reeves. Special thanks to the punks at the Music Resource Center in Charlottesville, Virginia: Riles, Susie, Jack, Tate, Tiny, Cheyenne, Zina, Bray, Jordan and Orion

Our advisors are Theanne Griffith, Aliyah Elijah, Dominique Shabazz, Liza Steinberg-Demby, and Tara Welty.

Terrestrials is supported in part by Science Sandbox, an initiative of the Simons Foundation.

Have questions for us, badgers? Badger us away! Your parent/guardian should write to us along with you, so we know you have their permission, and for maybe even having your ideas mentioned on the show. Email terrestrials@wnyc.org

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Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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A track of hoofprints snakes through a vast, lush meadow. At the horizon the silhouette of a mule rears triumphantly against the blazing sunset.   

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

# included[].attributes.show-tease
A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.show-title
Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

# included[].attributes.series[].about.body
Terrestrials is a show for people of all ages that explores the strangeness that exists right here on Earth. In each episode, host Lulu Miller (co-host of Radiolab) will introduce you to a creature or earthly phenomenon that will defy your expectations of how nature is supposed to work. Along the way, you'll encounter a chorus of experts, including scientists, surfers, hip hop artists and…a "Songbud" named Alan (indie punk musician Alan Goffinski) who creates original songs for key moments of confusion, discovery or awe. New episodes drop Thursdays. Listen in with your whole family. Or all alone.

Support for Terrestrials is provided by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundation.

LISTEN TO TERRESTRIALS  | SUPPORT TERRESTRIALS | TERRESTRIALS WANTS YOUR FEEDBACK! | PRESS INQUIRIES  | BECOME A SPONSOR | CONTACT US

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

# included[].attributes.series[].logo-image.alt-text
Radiolab for Kids Presents Terrestrials Logo

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A fantastical mix of two beasts comes together, thrives, and does something scientists thought it could never do

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LULU MILLER: [whispers] Three, two one!

MOLLY SCHUMER: Imagine your parents, they're like aliens to each other.

LULU: Your mom is ...

MOLLY SCHUMER: ... super, super strong.

LULU: She's over six feet tall with long, flowing hair that ruffles in the wind. Tra la la! And your dad is, uh ...

MOLLY SCHUMER: Very, very cute.

LULU: Hoo hoo! He's got short, stumpy legs, huge ears, buck teeth, and some say a kind of jerky personality. And as these two different species of animals come together to form you, the genes inside your cells ...

MOLLY SCHUMER: They're basically speaking two different languages. So you have two separate sets of directions of how to make you, how you're going to operate in the world.

LULU: Your legs bulge long and strong like your mom's. And your feet scrunch into tiny hooves like your dad's. And when you finally come out into the world, you open your eyes and see ...

MOLLY SCHUMER: How you don't really fit into either species or either world.

LULU: Some people say a mashup of species like you is ...

TERESA SMOTHERS: Impossible.

LULU: And yet here you are.

MOLLY SCHUMER: You're a mule.

LULU: All right. Now is the part where I make you sing the theme song with me.

MOLLY SCHUMER: [laughs] Okay.

LULU: [singing] "Terrestrials. Terrestrials. We are not the worst, we are the ..."

MOLLY SCHUMER: Best?

LULU: "-rials." Yup! Correct!

MOLLY SCHUMER: Okay!

LULU: Terrestrials is a show where we uncover the strangeness waiting right here on Earth, and sometimes break out into song.

[Theme song: There's so much to discover if you're super cool. Terrestrials. Terrestrials. This last episode is about a mule. Terrestrials. Terrestrials.]

LULU: Good voices not required. I'm your host Lulu Miller joined as always by my Songbud ...

ALAN GOFFINSKI: Howdy, partner!

LULU: Alan.

ALAN: Giddy up!

LULU: Today, we are telling the story of a humble mule named Peanut, who one summer day did something so rare that it shattered one of the most sacred laws of nature.

LULU: What was that blasphemous thing you were saying?

ALAN: What, about carrots?

LULU: Yeah.

ALAN: No thanks!

LULU: Don't like 'em?

ALAN: Don't like carrots.

LULU: So to understand this story, the Songbud and I grabbed a bunch of carrots, hopped in a car and headed down to Kentucky ...

LULU: Ooh, horses!

LULU: ... to hear how it happened straight from the horse's—or, uh, mule's—mouth.

LULU: Pulling up to a gorgeous farm with purple balloons. I don't know if those are for the guest of honor or somebody else.

LULU: So first, we met Peanut's owners, Jerry and Teresa Smothers.

JERRY SMOTHERS: I'm Jerry.

ALAN: Great to see ya.

TERESA SMOTHERS: I'm Teresa.

LULU: I'm Lulu!

LULU: Then we met their mothers.

TERESA SMOTHERS: This is my mother-in-law, Lily.

LULU: The Smothers mothers.

TERESA SMOTHERS: This is my mother, Susie.

LULU: That there sniffing the mic is their dog Ginger.

LULU: Hi!

ALAN: Hi, Ginger!

LULU: Next, we met their cat, Tony, their son, Justin, their grand niece ...

TERESA SMOTHERS: Carly Ann.

LULU: And finally ...

LULU: So this is Peanut?

TERESA SMOTHERS: That's Peanut.

LULU: ... Peanut herself.

LULU: You have anything to say, Peanut?

[crunching sound]

LULU: [laughs] Yeah, that's not a carrot.

LULU: [whispers] That was my microphone she was trying to eat.

LULU: It's a really expensive carrot. [laughs]

LULU: So our story starts when Peanut starts. She was born in 1999, and she came out with chocolatey-brown fur and a punk rock blonde mohawk of a mane.

TERESA SMOTHERS: And we fell in love with her.

LULU: Teresa and Jerry had been in the market for a new farm animal, and so they brought little Peanut back to their farm, and thought they knew what they were getting themselves into. Things started off nor-mule-y enough. They made a home for her in their stable, they introduced her to their little three-year-old niece, Hannah.

TERESA SMOTHERS: So we would set Hannah on her, and Jerry would hold Hannah and I would lead Peanut. Well, Peanut would do that for a little while ...

LULU: Walking peacefully. Until suddenly ...

TERESA SMOTHERS: She'd start bucking! Well, the more she bucked, the more Hannah loved it.

LULU: No!

TERESA SMOTHERS: Yes.

LULU: [laughs]

LULU: As time went on, the Smothers added more and more animals to their farm.

JERRY SMOTHERS: Cows and ...

TERESA SMOTHERS: ... big horses.

LULU: And little Peanut ...

JERRY SMOTHERS: She would try to manipulate the horses to do what she wanted them to do. She'd turn her back end and kick ...

LULU: And buck and nudge her way to the front of the line.

JERRY SMOTHERS: ... and get in there where she can eat or get a treat or whatever it is.

LULU: It turned out Peanut was ...

JERRY SMOTHERS: Bossy.

TERESA SMOTHERS: Bossy.

LULU: Bossy?

JERRY SMOTHERS: That's a good word, "Bossy."

LULU: And that part didn't surprise the Smothers.

TERESA SMOTHERS: You know, mules are stubborn.

LULU: This stubbornness is probably what mules are most famous for. Ever heard the expression "stubborn as a mule?" If someone's calling you "muleish," they mean you should probably give up on the thing that you won't stop trying to do. It's a diss. And this obstinance is why mules don't have the greatest reputation. On a recent poll of over a thousand farm-y type people, mules came in dead last for favorite of the horse-like creatures: horses, donkeys and mules.

JAMES REEVES: All right. I'm down in the Pate Valley with five loaded mules.

LULU: But for the small subset of people who do love mules, like James Reeves here, a mule packer who spends spends his days riding mules over massive mountains to bring food and supplies to remote trail workers, he says mules are not the worst but literally the best parts of both of their parents. He says they've got the strength of a horse in the compact size of a donkey, meaning they can lug heavy gear just as long and far as a horse while eating way less food.

JAMES REEVES: The t rail is really rugged going down here. Lotta rocks.

LULU: Plus, their little hooves make them far better at navigating treacherous, narrow mountain trails than horses. They're also less prone to injury and illness, they're less likely to spook and run off if something surprises them. And they can withstand the blazing sun for hours longer than horses or donkeys.

JAMES REEVES: We're at about 4,000 feet elevation, which here in California can get pretty hot in the summer.

LULU: And their superpowers do not stop when the sun goes down.

[coyote howling]

TERESA SMOTHERS: They keep coyotes out of the field.

LULU: No, really?

TERESA SMOTHERS: So farmers use them for their cattle. That way these coyotes can't, you know, get the babies. So they will kill a coyote.

LULU: Okay, I'm picturing, like, a pack of coyotes, fangs, and then, like, a sweet little mule? The mule's gonna win?

TERESA SMOTHERS: Yeah, every time.

LULU: How? How?

TERESA SMOTHERS: Kicking.

JAMES REEVES: Yeah. Probably the single biggest benefit is their stubbornness.

LULU: Yup. That muleish stubbornness that so many people love to hate? James over the years has come to see as mules' very best feature. He told me about one time he was riding a mule, and it suddenly stopped. And no matter how much he kicked or pulled at it, it would not move. And finally, James saw why.

JAMES REEVES: There was a rattlesnake there on the trail.

LULU: [gasps]

JAMES REEVES: And the mule had heard the snake, I think, and I hadn't. And it was trying to tell me, "No, I'm not gonna do that because it's dangerous." And that's kind of a typical thing that happens with people a lot, they mistake higher intelligence for stubbornness.

LULU: James is not alone in this interpretation. A 2008 study found that mules perform better than horses and donkeys on tests for visual awareness and learning, suggesting they might be quantifiably the smartest of all the equids.

JAMES REEVES: Yeah.

LULU: And this trifecta of strength: fuel, efficiency and intelligence, is why mules are more deeply a part of human history than you may realize. Humans have been breeding mules since ancient times. They've carried turquoise and gold and silver out of mines, they've carried the supplies that have allowed us to build train tracks all over the globe. They're gentle enough to safely carry schoolchildren over treacherous peaks, and tough enough to lug cannon-like weapons into battle. They've even changed the flow of the ocean by helping to dig canals, and helped us to build temples so high they sometimes touch the clouds. But these ultra-strong, cognitively-supercharged, coyote-kicking animorph superheroes do have one glitch ...

TERESA SMOTHERS: Mules don't have babies.

MOLLY SCHUMER: Yep. They're not going to have children of their own, which we call "infertile."

LULU: This is evolutionary biologist Dr. Molly Schumer. We heard her voice at the very beginning describing what it's like to be a mule.

MOLLY SCHUMER: Your parents, they're like aliens to each other.

LULU: And she says the reason mules can't have babies all goes back to their parents. Quick refresher: a mule's parents are two different species: a horse and a donkey. And for a long time, scientists thought that a mashup of creatures like this was not supposed to happen in nature. Hybrid beasts like a horse with eagle wings or a human with a fishtail were thought to belong in the realm of fantasy or myths or fairy tales or, you know, lies. And while you might be able to "artificially" engineer a mashup like a mule or a liger—a lion and a tiger—or a zonkey—a zebra and a donkey—all those things can exist by forcing their parents to breed, nature had barriers in place that should never allow a man-made creation like that to carry on. And those rules, those hard-and-fast barriers between species became visible—or so scientists thought—when they first glimpsed these structures inside the cell called ...

MOLLY SCHUMER: Chromosomes.

LULU: All right. Now before you shut off this here program, we are gonna explain chromosomes as a line dance with sub par country accents. Yee haw!

ALAN: [singing] Well now, DNA makes up your genes, genes make up your chromosomes. Chromosomes are inside your cells and cells make up your body.

LULU: Now hold your horses, Songbud! What did you just say?

ALAN: Come on, Lulu, keep up! I said, [singing] DNA makes up your genes and genes make up your chromosomes.

LULU: All right.

ALAN: Chromosomes are inside your cells, and cells make up your body.

LULU: Huh.

ALAN: "Genetic code" is a fancy way to say the DNA inside your genes.

LULU: So it's the reason why my eyes are blue and maybe yours are brown or green.

ALAN: Yup! Critters, plants and all things alive have chromosomes with genes inside. But here's where things start getting strange. Tell us, Lulu, what'd Molly say?

LULU: Well, Dr. Molly let us know how every species has its own special number of chromosomes that hold their cell's genetic code. Corn on the cob, what's the number again?

ALAN: 20, my friend. Two sets of 10.

LULU: What about dolphins?

ALAN: 44!

LULU: Red foxies?

ALAN: They have 34.

LULU: Duck-billed platypus, how about them?

ALAN: 52 for our duck-billed friend.

LULU: And purty little donkeys, how do they do?

ALAN: Hee haw, they have 62!

LULU: But now tell me: horsies, they have more?

ALAN: They got exactly 64! In order to make a baby, the chromosomes inside each parent have to do a little line dance. It's just got two parts. First you gotta split your chromosomes in half—half on the right, half on the left.

LULU: Well, the next part, that's a little bit harder.

ALAN: What do they have to do, Dr. Molly?

MOLLY SCHUMER: All the chromosomes have to line up with their partner.

ALAN and LULU: [singing] Partner, partner, partner, partner! It's the chromosome do-si-do. How to make an embryo: get into a nice, straight line and swing your partner to recombine.

ALAN: When parents are the same species, the dance is smooth, but when the numbers don't match,things can get confused. And most of time, that just can't be, but a horse and a donkey found a way to agree. They found the sweet spot right between 62 and 64—63! So a mule's got 63 inside. When it grows up and tries to make more life, it lines right up with that same line dance, its chromosomes all ready to prance.

ALAN and LULU: The chromosome do-si-do, how to make an embryo: get into a nice, straight line and swing your partner to recombine.

ALAN: So 63 chromosomes split in half—half on the right ...

LULU: ... half on the left. Uh, wait. Half of 63 is—uh oh!

MOLLY SCHUMER: What happens in the case of a mule that has 63 chromosomes is it ends up with this sort of problem where not all the chromosomes are matched to a partner and it can't split in half properly.

LULU: Wait. So it's just as simple as, like, you have to have an even number so it can be divided by two?

MOLLY SCHUMER: Yeah.

LULU: And so since 63 divided by two is 31 and a half ...

MOLLY SCHUMER: Exactly. That's the problem.

LULU: Does that—what's so bad about having 31 and a half chromosomes? What makes that such a problem?

MOLLY SCHUMER: So in a lot of cases, what happens is the cell is lining up the chromosomes to divide, and it's, like, checking. Is everything ready? Is it okay to divide? And then it can see that things aren't lined up properly.

LULU: [singing] It's the chromosome do-si-do, how to make an embryo. If you can't divide in two, well, there's nothing left to do. Head on home, folks. Show's over. No babies being made tonight.

LULU: Who knew, like, life was such a stickler for clean math?

MOLLY SCHUMER: Yeah, I know. Right? [laughs]

LULU: And this scientific certainty has clomped its way out to farm country. Jerry and Teresa said that growing up, this was just a thing you knew about mules.

TERESA SMOTHERS: They have odd chromosomes. And so if you have odd chromosomes, you can't have a baby.

JERRY SMOTHERS: Yep. That's what we've always heard.

LULU: There's even an expression, "When a mule has a baby." It's like, "When pigs fly." Never gonna happen.

JERRY SMOTHERS: Hey, Peanut! Hey, Peanut!

LULU: And so, back to Peanut.

LULU: Is nose petting cool?

TERESA SMOTHERS: Yes.

LULU: Hi!

LULU: For years, she roamed the fields of the Smothers' farm.

LULU: [laughs]

LULU: Live-laugh-hoofin' it up, her chocolatey brown fur slowly starting to gray.

JERRY SMOTHERS: You can kinda see the white and the gray around her eyes and nose.

LULU: That spunky spirit starting to slow down.

JERRY SMOTHERS: We kind of noticed that, you know, she's—she's starting to show her age a little bit.

LULU: And as she nears 20 years old, Jerry and Teresa are sure that because those 63 chromosomes inside her will never be able to divide neatly in half, that'll be it for Peanut in their lives. No babies coming to carry on her memories or spirit.

JERRY SMOTHERS: You always think about that.

TERESA SMOTHERS: Of course, yes.

LULU: And that should be how the story ends. But it's not. More in a moment.

***

LULU: You're listening to Terrestrials. We are telling the story of a mule named ...

JERRY SMOTHERS: Peanut!

LULU: ... whose life was pretty uneventful for 17 years.

TERESA SMOTHERS: Yeah, it was just here on the farm, eating, bossing the other animals around.

LULU: [laughs]

LULU: Until one morning in July of 2018, Jerry gets a call from his neighbor Sam, a guy who has a bunch of donkeys that Peanut sometimes goes over to boss around.

JERRY SMOTHERS: Sam called and he said, "Well, your mule's had a baby." And I said, "Sam, you're mistaken and getting old, because mules can't have babies." And he said, "Well, you should have told her that before she got pregnant."

LULU: Jerry says there's no way. But Sam insists.

JERRY SMOTHERS: "Jerry, it's here. I'm here looking at it." [laughs]

LULU: Jerry tells Teresa what Sam has just told him.

TERESA SMOTHERS: And I said, "Oh, he don't know what he's talking about."

JERRY SMOTHERS: He's old and senile. [laughs]

TERESA SMOTHERS: I said, "There's no way."

LULU: But they head on over to Sam's farm just to check it out.

TERESA SMOTHERS: And I'll never forget it.

LULU: There was their Peanut ...

TERESA SMOTHERS: In the corner of the field, in a fenceline with the baby.

LULU: This light gray mule-looking thing with a funny puff of blonde hair on top of its head.

TERESA SMOTHERS: Everybody was running, and she just tumbled over because she had this big head up here, you know, and this little bitty body.

LULU: Like the weight was all off balance?

TERESA SMOTHERS: Yes!

LULU: And even though no one saw the birth ...

JERRY SMOTHERS: You just knew.

TERESA SMOTHERS: You just knew because when Peanut moved, that baby moved.

JERRY SMOTHERS: Mm-hmm.

LULU: And stranger still, while Peanut couldn't make any milk, because, you know, not a thing mules should ever need to do.

TERESA SMOTHERS: She had clear liquid coming from her teets.

LULU: [gasps]

DESTINY: I mean, it was a shock.

LULU: Hmm.

DESTINY: Like, "Wow, this isn't supposed to happen."

LULU: This is the Smothers' neighbor, Destiny, who was 14 years old when the little filly was born.

DESTINY: Yes.

TERESA SMOTHERS: And we did say—we said, "Oh my gosh. This is a miracle." And I'm like, "Well, that's a perfect name."

LULU: Miracle. That's what they named her.

DESTINY: It just fit so perfectly. So ...

LULU: And the Smothers asked Destiny to help them keep little Miracle fed.

DESTINY: I got to bottle-feed her, I think, three times a day.

LULU: What?

DESTINY: Yes. It was amazing.

LULU: What was bottle feeding like? Like, what milk were you using, and would you go sit down with her? Would you stand?

DESTINY: Well, we either put it between our legs.

LULU: A plastic bottle full of a baby formula made from cow's milk.

DESTINY: So it was kind of like a real thing of what she would actually do with her mom.

LULU: Oh yeah.

DESTINY: Or you'd put it in the armpit so that she could nuzzle a little bit.

LULU: Oh! Was that like the coziest thing in the planet?

DESTINY: It was. I loved it. It was—it was hard not to smile the whole time and just laugh 'cause it was just so cute.

LULU: I interrupt the cutest scene in Kentucky to ask a very pressing question: what about the chromosomes? How did this mule have a baby? Molly, what the hoof is going on?

MOLLY SCHUMER: Yeah. So it's really uncomfortable as a scientist to speculate. One thing to know about evolution is that the mistakes are important.

LULU: Molly says if you'd asked her about 15 years ago when she was in college, she would have told us what her professors were telling her, which is that this baby was a mistake. Somehow, nature let a little bad math slide through. And indeed, over the centuries there have been a tiny number of confirmed cases of mules giving birth. But according to the scientific rules, those quote-unquote "mistakes" with their mismatched chromosomes inside should have such serious problems trying to grow that they'd be ...

MOLLY SCHUMER: Unable to survive, which we call "inviable."

LULU: And sure enough ...

JERRY SMOTHERS: It was probably four—four or five days.

LULU: ... after Miracle was born ...

TERESA SMOTHERS: She stopped eating. And she just laid around and she couldn't walk.

LULU: Their neighbor Sam stopped by one day and found Miracle lying down, lifeless.

JERRY SMOTHERS: He thought she was dead.

LULU: And he slunked home to get a shovel to dig a hole for Miracle. To bury her. But when Teresa and Jerry came back later that day, they saw Miracle was still breathing, though she was struggling. So they rushed her to the animal hospital.

TERESA SMOTHERS: Yes. So they shaved her neck and they put IVs in her, and they gave her all of this medicine. And it was very costly. And each day we were like, "You know, what are we gonna do? We can't ..."

JERRY SMOTHERS: So here—here they are.

LULU: Jerry pulls out a photo on his phone from that time.

LULU: Wow. So it's like this little mule in hay, surrounded by all these surgeon-looking folks.

JERRY SMOTHERS: Yeah. And see, there they are working on her.

LULU: Yeah. Oh, there's Peanut. Did they bring Peanut in to, like, comfort her?

JERRY SMOTHERS: She stayed with her the whole time.

TERESA SMOTHERS: Mm-hmm.

DESTINY: We all prayed in the church.

LULU: They wait a fifth day.

JERRY SMOTHERS: The vet said that, you know, she wasn't gonna live.

LULU: A sixth day.

TERESA SMOTHERS: We were sitting up there in the hay, and sitting there and boohooing, and—and I said, "Let's just give her one more day." Remember that?

JERRY SMOTHERS: Mm-hmm.

TERESA SMOTHERS: I said, "Let's give her one more day."

LULU: And then one of the doctors had the idea of giving Peanut—sweet, old, graying Peanut—some medicine.

TERESA SMOTHERS: Called domperidone.

LULU: Okay.

TERESA SMOTHERS: And it made that liquid turn into milk for Miracle.

LULU: [gasps]

LULU: And little Miracle begins suckling milk from Peanut, and almost immediately gains weight, strength. She loses her cough.

TERESA SMOTHERS: She turned around just like that. And she came home on the seventh day.

LULU: And as for how long this fragile little mistake lasted after she came home? Well ...

LULU: Wow. Pulling up to a gorgeous farm with purple balloons. I don't know if those are for the guest of honor. [laughs]

LULU: ... that's why we went out there to Kentucky on that hot July day: to meet Miracle for her fourth birthday.

TERESA SMOTHERS: She'll be four. Yes.

JERRY SMOTHERS: Miracle will be four.

LULU: Wow. Well, can we—can we go meet the birthday girl?

TERESA SMOTHERS: Yes.

LULU: Teresa and Jerry and their moms and son and grand niece led us outside, trailed by their dog and cat into the hot July afternoon. We crossed a big field of grass, and then Jerry unlocked a gate and led out a hefty, gray creature with donkey ears and a horse tail—which I swear she was wagging.

SMOTHERS MOTHERS: [laughs] Look at her waggle her tail!

LULU: She was no longer wobbly ...

LULU: Hi, Miracle!

LULU: ... and in fact, was so strong, she let a fully-grown radio lady climb onto her back without flinching.

LULU: Okay, that might be—that might be [laughs]. Thank you!

LULU: And that wasn't all. When we busted out the piñata we were so proud to have brought to her birthday party—a piñata not in the shape of a mule like so many piñatas are, but in the shape of a human—true to her nature ...

LULU: She's wisely not trusting it.

LULU: She stubbornly ignored it.

LULU: Oh, we're seeing mule obstiance in—in action. She like, "There's wires sticking out of that thing. I don't want it."

MOLLY SCHUMER: The mistakes are important.

LULU: Molly said she'd love to get a peek at Miracle's blood to better understand what exactly is going on with her chromosomes. And the Smothers have sent samples out to labs, but she also said in the decade and a half since she's been in college, biologists have gotten new tools that have allowed them to see something inside species' secret genetic codes that they hadn't been able to see before.

MOLLY SCHUMER: What we learn, first in plants, but then later in animals, that actually hybrids were being formed all the time.

LULU: ... that's right. It turns out the wilderness is a fantasia of hybrids: butterflies and crocodiles and grasses and trees that on the inside have been revealed to be wild mixes of species.

MOLLY SCHUMER: There's been hybridization between grizzly bears and polar bears.

LULU: Pizzly bears!

MOLLY SCHUMER: Between coyotes and wolves.

LULU: Coy-wolves!

MOLLY SCHUMER: Rainbow trout and cutthroat trout. Those species hybridize.

LULU: Is a cut-rainbow called a Skittlefish?

MOLLY SCHUMER: Skittle! Love it!

LULU: Okay. Sorry.

MOLLY SCHUMER: I will propose that.

LULU: Tell all the scientists.

MOLLY SCHUMER: Yes. I will tell them. [laughs]

LULU: There are narlugas—narwhal-belugas. And camas—camel-llamas. And some people even guess that we are hybrids with a now-extinct creature called Neanderthals. And perhaps wildest of all is that these naturally-occurring mash-ups can have babies and carry on their beautifully blended chromosomes into the future.

MOLLY SCHUMER: This is why this has been kind of such a fun field to be in now is that it's an area where I think it has changed dramatically over the past 10 or 15 years.

LULU: Molly explained that these days, scientists no longer think of hybrids as mistakes, flukes or man-made anomalies. Instead, they seem to be one of the main ways that nature species.

LULU: Hey, Miracle. Could you say goodbye?

LULU: And so the existence of Miracle isn't necessarily a case of the rules getting broken, so much as it's us having had the rules wrong.

[ALAN: [singing] Heads up! Heads up! Mind open. We will never stop searching, 'cause the world keeps changing. Heads up! Heads up! Mind open. Ears open, keep your eyes open.]

[LULU: [singing] You don’t have to tell me how easy it is to stay stuck in a box with the things you believe.]

[ALAN: [singing] I wanna break it down, wake up and reach out beyond impossibility.]

[LULU: [singing] You don't have to tell me how hard it can be to find the magic when everything feels static.]

[ALAN: [singing] But there is so much to discover if you look real close. It can seem like a miracle.]

[ALAN and LULU: [singing] Heads up! Heads up! Mind open. We will never stop searching, 'cause the world keeps changing. Heads up! Heads up! Mind open. Ears open, keep your eyes open.]

[ALAN: [singing] No one better tell us they have all the answers when nobody even knows all the questions.]

[ANA GONZÁLEZ: And we're all still learning how we should ask them.]

[ALAN: [singing] We change the rules that need to change, embrace the way mistakes are made. We break away, we're not afraid. Won't hesitate to question everything.]

[ALAN, LULU, ANA and the kids from the Music Resource Center in Charlottesville, VA: [singing] Heads up! Heads up! Mind open. Ears open, keep your eyes open.]

LULU: Alan Goffinski!

LULU: Terrestrials was created by me, Lulu Miller, with WNYC Studios. It is produced by the a-mule-zing Ana González and Alan Goffinski plus me. With help from Suzie Lechtenberg, Sarah Sandbach, Natalia Ramirez, Natalie Meade, Miriam Bernard, David Gebel, Joe Plourde and Sarita Bhatt. Sound design and additional editorial guidance by Phoebe Wang. Clumpety-clump!

LULU: Our advisors are Theanne Griffith, Aliyah Elijah, Dominique Shabazz, Liza Steinberg-Demby and Tara Welty.

LULU: Terrestrials is supported in part by Science Sandbox, an initiative of the Simons Foundation.

LULU: Special thanks to Boomer Geis, Amy Pearl, Daniel Alarcón, The Szumylo Family, Julie Abodeely and the Wheeler School, Charlottesville's Music Resource Center, Canelo Joaquin, Briana Gutierrez and the Park Equine Hospital. And that'll do it. Nothing else cool about to ... what's that?

BADGER: Excuse me, I have a question.

BADGER: Me too.

BADGER: Me three.

BADGER: Me four.

LULU: The badgers! Listeners with badgering questions for the expert. Are you ready?

JAMES REEVES: Yeah.

MOLLY SCHUMER: Yeah.

ODESSA: Hee-haw! My name is Odessa. I'm eight. Do mules say "hee-haw," or only donkeys?

JAMES REEVES: It's actually called braying. So a horse neighs and a mule brays. They've all got their own voices, same as us.

LULU: Hmm. I would have thought it would have been "nee-haw," a little hybrid of "neigh" plus "hee-haw?" But I guess that's a neigh-gative.

ERIN: Hi. I'm Erin, and I'm 35. I hear that there are more pizzly bears due to climate change. Is this true? And is this new animal here to stay?

MOLLY SCHUMER: That is a fantastic question. So it is actually true, and we're seeing this a lot in a lot of different species. And this is because with climate change, species are having to move around to find the right environments for them. So for example, you might see grizzly bears moving further north because it's less harsh in the winter. And then you can get contact between species that previously didn't have contact, and new opportunities for hybridization.

LULU: Hmm. Do you think that these polar bear/grizzly bear hybrids are here to stay?

MOLLY SCHUMER: Yeah. I mean, I think humans have been changing the environment so much that I do think that we are gonna see a lot of new hybridization events, and some of those will stick around. I—I hope the pizzly bears make it.

LULU: Do you think humans are accelerating the rate of hybrids?

MOLLY SCHUMER: Yeah. I've seen a couple of papers start to come out saying that hybridization might be increasing in frequency right now.

LULU: Hmm.

MOLLY SCHUMER: Mainly because we're just changing everything really fast.

LULU: Hmm. Oh, interesting. That's cool! But I guess the sad note on that is like, one hand I'm like, "Ooh, more zonkeys and pizzlies and ligers and a world of blends!" But is it out of this kind of desperate necessity?

MOLLY SCHUMER: Yeah.

LULU: Are sort of species leaving their ranks and coming together to combine because humans are stealing so much habitat that they have to come together to just survive? Like, is there a bittersweetness in that beauty of novelty?

MOLLY SCHUMER: Yeah, I definitely think that's bittersweet. You know, it's a result of massive changes that—that humans have—have made.

LULU: So I'll leave it there. Two roads diverging, and you can walk either one. Do nothing, and let more and more animals hybridize, making wild beasts beyond the imagination! Or do your part to try to conserve what's here, and notice all the variety that already exists alongside you.

LULU: But the weight of the world is not on your shoulders alone. Our best hope of making change is by coming together, so we've put a bunch of concrete—and even kind of fun—things we can all do to help protect the non-human life on this planet. You can find that on our website, TerrestrialsPodcast.org. We also have a very silly animation of a game show we played with Dr. Molly called "Will They Hybridize?"

LULU: That'll do it for this season of Terrestrials. If you would like this series to continue, have your adult text TIGER to 70101 for details on how to become a Lab member and support Terrestrials. The number again is 70101. Just text the word TIGER!

LULU: I cannot shut down this dance party without saying the deepest thank you to Ana González and Alan Goffinski. This show, this little world, would not exist without your immense talents. Thank you also to Chuck Cheeseman, Latif Nasser, Ellen Horne, Jad Abumrad, Soren Wheeler and the whole Radiolab crew for your support of this thing in various flavors along the way. And finally, bedazzled in rhinestone hearts thanks to Alida Goffinski, Jeff "The Earther" Matayus and Grace Miller. Y'all helped make this too.

LULU: To all two of you left still listening, if anyone tells you that they've got it all figured out, I've got news for you ...

[ALAN: [singing] They don't. Your brain weighs just three pounds and the earth would weigh Thirteen Thousand One Hundred Seventy Billion Trillion Pounds, with too many surprises to wrap my little head around.]

[ALAN: [singing] I'll take my chances that there are still surprises. This world changes suddenly and clumsily/With every discovery, every discovery.]

[CHORUS: Thirteen Thousand One Hundred Seventy Billion Trillion Pounds. Heads up! Heads up! Minds open.]

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

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Radiolab, one of the most beloved podcasts in the world, reaches into its archives to create Radiolab for Kids. It's a place where we've collected Radiolab's most family-friendly content. (Because we all know that over the years, some of the content has been…er…NOT so family friendly!) From “What do dogs see when they look at the rainbow?” to “Do animals laugh?” the topics are squeaky clean (mostly) and all about curiosity. Radiolab for Kids is sure to delight and engage the most curious minds.

Created in 2002 by Jad Abumrad, Radiolab has won Peabody Awards, a National Academies Communication Award “for their investigative use of radio to make science accessible to broad audiences,” and in 2011 Abumrad received the MacArthur Genius grant. The show has an archive of hundreds of episodes and has toured in sold out shows nationwide.

Radiolab is available on iTunes and heard around the country on more than 500 member stations. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC and the BBC.

# data.attributes.about.body
Radiolab, one of the most beloved podcasts in the world, reaches into its archives to create Radiolab for Kids. It's a place where we've collected Radiolab's most family-friendly content. (Because we all know that over the years, some of the content has been…er…NOT so family friendly!) From “What do dogs see when they look at the rainbow?” to “Do animals laugh?” the topics are squeaky clean (mostly) and all about curiosity. Radiolab for Kids is sure to delight and engage the most curious minds.

Created in 2002 by Jad Abumrad, Radiolab has won Peabody Awards, a National Academies Communication Award “for their investigative use of radio to make science accessible to broad audiences,” and in 2011 Abumrad received the MacArthur Genius grant. The show has an archive of hundreds of episodes and has toured in sold out shows nationwide.

Radiolab is available on iTunes and heard around the country on more than 500 member stations. Check your local station for airtimes. It's also available via the CBC and the BBC.

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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A show where we uncover the strangeness right here on Earth

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials

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Radiolab for Kids Presents: Terrestrials